I'm struggling to muster enough sympathy to feel bad for someone who lacks the desire to master the most basic skills associated with their career (which should be a calling, explaining part of the problem) when they've been given full knowledge and forewarning that they could be called upon to use lethal violence to protect themselves or innocents. Probably not going to happen tonight - I'll check back tomorrow.
- It's not the odds, it's the stakes.
- If you aren't dry practicing every week, you're not serious.....
- "Tache-Psyche Effect - a polite way of saying 'You suck.' " - GG
Yep, no sympathy for me either....Originally Posted by John Hearne
I'm struggling to muster enough sympathy to feel bad for someone who lacks the desire to master the most basic skills associated with their career (which should be a calling, explaining part of the problem) when they've been given full knowledge and forewarning that they could be called upon to use lethal violence to protect themselves or innocents. Probably not going to happen tonight - I'll check back tomorrow.
Lots of skills need practice off company time to perfect, and many just won’t make the effort.
KeeFus,
I couldn’t agree more. Regarding gun grab attempts on LE I don’t know the frequency statistics but I am guessing it is quite infrequent. I do know that, thankfully, it has never happened to me and unless my memory is failing me now, not to any of the deputies I have worked with over the years. Now, mind you, I know attempts happen and maybe if I was involved in one my opinion of having or wanting or needing a manual safety on a pistol could change.
And I don’t see it as training to the lowest denominator even considering 90% of police officers I interact with on the street and instruct at the range are decidedly non-gun people and would undoubtedly forget to manipulate it. But my issue with having one is that swiping it off after a decision to shoot has been made requires movement from opposing digits simultaneously, the thumb down on the safety and the index finger out of register down into the trigger guard onto the trigger. I am a proponent of swiping the safety off during the draw process but was told no, only after a decision to shoot has been made.
We have quite a few people, in the last year, carrying the Sig Legion in SAO with the safety. With our department policy I said to myself, no SAO for me then.
And not to cause a topic divert, but it’s only been in the last few years that we’ve been emphasizing putting the safety back on the AR in between strings of fire, essentially when you dismount, which I can see and wholeheartedly agree with, given the AR’s lack of a firing pin safety. Still, for me anyway, it’s been a sizeable learning curve, given that it was not stressed to us for the first 6-8 years we were issued them.
Food for thought.
Take care,
Gary
Last edited by Pima Cty Five-O; 04-04-2018 at 11:21 AM. Reason: Changed would change to could change
With our 1911's, we do on target=safety off, off target=safety on. Same with rifles.
The movement is very much like making a fist, which is a very natural movement.
TC215,
That seems logical as my belief that you swipe the safety on the draw, is only one step in the process sooner. But I like yours better, as it ensures the safety doesn’t come off during a less than perfect draw.
And thanks JTQ for that analogy. That makes sense too.
Gary
TC215,
One question of clarification— is the safety off or on at low ready when the gun is just below the threat? Because if it’s on then you are following the same procedure we are. As in it only comes off when raising the gun and engaging the threat(s).
Gary
This is correct. I've got several incidents on record of people failing to unsafe their gun and being ineffective because of it. One woman was disarmed and raped, one man was killed, one man sucked up over a dozen rounds of .40 while pulling the dead trigger of a 1911 but survived, one failed to (effectively) intervene in a robbery of an armored car guard, etc.
I've also been injured to the point deactivating a thumb safety would be a two handed activity while one of my hands was rather busy. My strong hand thumb was broken and dislocated so as to be basically be a dew claw.
I understand everything is a trade off and I understand everything is a training issue. Personally, I'm fine with no thumb safety and would prefer to carry a DA/SA or striker without one.
Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.
In theory, yes, the gun would be on safe at a low-ready. That's how I do it and that's what we teach (which is the same method that the local FBI SWAT team used when they still had 1911's).
HOWEVER, it's hard to say what everyone is actually doing in actual practice. In my opinion, are team, and department as a whole, does not put enough emphasis on safety manipulation and training.
When our team first went to 1911's several years ago, I noticed one guy was carrying his 1911 with his safety off. I questioned him on it...I can't really remember what his excuse was, but basically it was to "make it easier" so he wouldn't forget to deactivate it. He had to go for some remedial training.
One of the names on our memorial wall was an officer carrying a 1911 off duty who intervened in a bank robbery. He did not deactivate the safety, and was killed. His on duty weapon was a S&W revolver.
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