My new Mini-14 and optics

[HCM]

A partial report. I took the gun just out of the box to the indoor range. I shot it with the plain iron sights, just standing there, no rest. I put a target at 15 yards. I basically wanted to see if the the gun would run. So:

1. My 70 year old eyes had a problem with front, back and target focusing with the iron sights. I wore my standard progressives. I shoot all the time with the glasses I wear. As an aside, if I ever do need the gun, I won't be wearing some specially made up shooting prescription. However, a blurry ring and clear front post was manageable.

2. I could put almost all the 70 rounds I fired into the X ring of a B-27 or its head. Many where tightly clustered or touching. The intrinsic wobble of my stance and grip is a lot of the variance. My damn shoulder slap tear and bicep rip gave me a touch of a tremorous grip. Bah. No problem with the trigger.

3. The gun ran just fine with the supplied Ruger 20 round factory mags. However, I bought a couple of ProMag 10 rounders (why - travel to evil states) and they were not friendly. Feeding the first round was troublesome and in one case I got an empty and a round mating with each other. Hard to clear. I've ordered some 10 round Ruger factor mags (more expensive).

4. Optic- I've just got a Leupold 113769 VX-R Patrol FireDot Illuminated Rifle Scope but haven't mounted it yet. Been too busy.

I like the gun and would serve my purposes as a more state friendly gun (until they ban all semis). If I can hit you at 15 yards in COM fairly easily with the irons, it's acceptable. I do like my AR more but life is complex. I probably wouldn't be shooting long range things with it but will ring out the Leupold at a 100 yards when it's set up.

Factory mags are the way to go with these regardless of capacity.

[Paso Quito]

I had my Mini 14 out a few weeks ago & had a blast... just over a 16" barrel, that little sucker has quite the muzzle blast! Unfortunately I couldn't hit anything at 100-115 yds, I couldn't seem to focus on the front sight. I tried opening both eyes (a little squint of the off eye) and I started hitting what I was aiming at. It was fun to out shoot my 18 yr old godson! I had no problem putting 10-20 shots in a row in a 10" circle at 100yds. If I sit down I get those shots on target in about 1/4 the time it takes when I stand.

I put some blue buffers in and it helped to take the sharp edge off the recoil and made it a lot easier to have quicker follow up shots.

Considering my eyes are bad & I hate the stock sights I think this little carbine is great... plus it finds into a scabbard I can strap to my saddle if I want to! I am trying to decide between a 1x4 scope or Techsites... the scope would be fun as long as it is a true 1x, I found I like shooting with both eyes open.

[Unobtanium]

The CDCR Service guns don't see Thousands of rounds. They are cheap and effective for their mission which is tower / catwalk / Gallery guns which are passed on from shift to shift and rarely shot.

The Mini 14 is more durable than most sporting guns, but compared to a true .MIL weapon like a quality AR they are fragile, have a shorter service life and are harder to service. Ask any Agency which has issued them.

T

I took your advice. One agency in CA uses them from helicopters. Mounted outside the bird. They love them. ARs had issues due to rotor wash and grit in the desert. They use them to shoot cars during pursuits.

I believe the Gulf academy has guns or had guns with over 100k through em. They use them at 50ish yards. New recruits, weapon fam. Work fine. Not accurate anymore by this forum standards...but 100k down the tube and they work still...

Looking further into it, I believe CHP has now gone through their billionth problem with ARs. SIG, this time. Finally got that ironed out...for now. A few decades ago, the mini14 was evaluated and issued over the m4 type even though they didnt want it...it won. They documented failures obsessively trying to discredit it after adoption...I wont go into details of the results, but it seems they did manage to break one...with some help...

I tried to find someone who objectively had issues with the mini14. Couldn't. Just a bunch of internet hearsay.

The problem is hitting the target with these.

I mean for typical civilian use. 0-200 yards in a 3moa group.

I doubt they've seen thousands and thousands of rounds. LAV said a few years back that based on what he's seen out of the Mini's that have came through his classes, that they are not a serious use gun. That pretty much mirrors what a lot of trainers have said about them. Also take a look at this post from earlier in the thread.

Well what has he seen from them? Pat Rogers said the same thing, but had only seen 2 total in his entire career teaching, both run by the same celebrity.

I guess what I am saying is that yes, the ar is more ergonomic, and more modular, and better for many reasons...but I can't find where a mini14 isnt ar least as reliable or durable, but instead my search turns up that they seem moreso.

[Casual Friday]

Well what has he seen from them? Pat Rogers said the same thing, but had only seen 2 total in his entire career teaching, both run by the same celebrity.

That nearly every one he's had in classes has shit the bed big time. Rogers, McNamara, and others have said the same thing. Hell even Yeager says that and he typically likes to say the opposite of everyone else.

I guess what I am saying is that yes, the ar is more ergonomic, and more modular, and better for many reasons...

Other than being a potential option during some future AWB or for people in ban states, what does a Mini do better than an AR?

but I can't find where a mini14 isnt ar least as reliable or durable, but instead my search turns up that they seem moreso.

Where are you finding that the Mini design is more durable and reliable than a well made AR, the Ruger forum?

[rob_s]

I took your advice. One agency in CA uses them from helicopters. Mounted outside the bird. They love them. ARs had issues due to rotor wash and grit in the desert. They use them to shoot cars during pursuits.

I believe the Gulf academy has guns or had guns with over 100k through em. They use them at 50ish yards. New recruits, weapon fam. Work fine. Not accurate anymore by this forum standards...but 100k down the tube and they work still...

Looking further into it, I believe CHP has now gone through their billionth problem with ARs. SIG, this time. Finally got that ironed out...for now. A few decades ago, the mini14 was evaluated and issued over the m4 type even though they didnt want it...it won. They documented failures obsessively trying to discredit it after adoption...I wont go into details of the results, but it seems they did manage to break one...with some help...

I tried to find someone who objectively had issues with the mini14. Couldn't. Just a bunch of internet hearsay.

I have a hard time understanding why you even participate or ask questions here. With all your alleged industry contacts that seem to almost always offer you the opinion you started out looking for, I'd think you would just contact them and be done.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Other than being a potential option during some future AWB or for people in ban states, what does a Mini do better than an AR?

I think a new AWB will probably take out the Minis also. Norway just did, IIRC. However, the second reason stands for now and for travel. Interestingly, when the gun came in and I showed it to my wife, next to the AR and said the Mini is good to go in some states but not the AR - her reply: That's stupid! The 10 round factory mags came the other day - she asks why get those. I explain that the factory 20's are banned and the 10s are not. Her reply: That's stupid!

If our wonderful progun politicians would do more than flap their gums about the 2nd Amend. and be proactive maybe the market for them would dry up. Saying you will defend the 2nd Amend. is more Maginot line BS to get money from the choir. They have no motivation to be proactive and don't legislatively act on HPA, reciprocity (controversial, I know), the SAGA act (gets rid of state bans), etc. SCOTUS will be useless for the foreseeable future. I heard that the Donald (after talking about himself and his legal crap) supported guns in the classroom as the NRA's major goal and defending the 2nd Amend. Any mention of the other topics as a priority?

Sorry for the diversion. Maybe I'm annoyed as our carbine match is rained out and my AR had to stay home today.

[Unobtanium]

I have a hard time understanding why you even participate or ask questions here. With all your alleged industry contacts that seem to almost always offer you the opinion you started out looking for, I'd think you would just contact them and be done.

Noone ever knows EVERYTHING. I expect people to support their allegations with something more than referencing someone like a guy who's seen a whopping 2, and has a business interest in the equation to boot. So I dug deeper and presented what I found, as it's institutional and covers hundreds of guns from the 80's until present. But now I'm a dick because I did this? Because I actually took the time to dig and get some answers with statistical significance?

That nearly every one he's had in classes has shit the bed big time. Rogers, McNamara, and others have said the same thing. Hell even Yeager says that and he typically likes to say the opposite of everyone else.



Other than being a potential option during some future AWB or for people in ban states, what does a Mini do better than an AR?



Where are you finding that the Mini design is more durable and reliable than a well made AR, the Ruger forum?

...how many has Yeager and McNamara seen in class? I believe Yeager said he has seen 2 or 3. Pat Rogers saw 2, and those were used by some TV type personality, so who knows? Were they used with OEM or aftermarket mags? Etc? Sample size matters. I've had a Wilson Supergrade that wasn't worth a shit, even after the 2nd time it came back from Wilson, but objectively, Wilson 1911's typically are pretty reliable.

People love to bash the Mini-14, but they tend to gloss over the fact that CHP simply CANNOT un-fudge the AR-15. They keep having issues. I think SIG finally sent 2 guys out to fix all their crap. But nevermind all this. The mini-14 sucks because Pat Rogers who saw 2, and Yeager who I believe saw a similar number, say they had issues.

A while back Ruger DID put out some junk mini-14's, and they still do from time to time, just like everyone puts out a lemon. Yes. But I simply have not seen evidence that it's not a good, reliable carbine, if you intend to use it within its limitations of ergonomics and practical accuracy. That is all I am getting at. I tried to turn some stones over and find the skeletons in its closet. I found that it had none.

http://articles.latimes.com/1989-05-...annigan-rifles

CHP wanted the AR to win. They gave the mini-14 a fair shot. It won. Even though they wanted the AR, they got the Mini, because it came out on top in their testing. Then the nitpicking of it began as records were OBSESSIVELY kept. Shockingly, the guns did damn fine. Stuff just didn't break like everyone likes to say it would. I believe it's San Bernardino, and others maybe, who use them in choppers. SPECIFICALLY because the AR doesn't handle it (grit, sand, rotor-wash). They tried. No-go.

[HCM]

I took your advice. One agency in CA uses them from helicopters. Mounted outside the bird. They love them. ARs had issues due to rotor wash and grit in the desert. They use them to shoot cars during pursuits.

I believe the Gulf academy has guns or had guns with over 100k through em. They use them at 50ish yards. New recruits, weapon fam. Work fine. Not accurate anymore by this forum standards...but 100k down the tube and they work still...

Looking further into it, I believe CHP has now gone through their billionth problem with ARs. SIG, this time. Finally got that ironed out...for now. A few decades ago, the mini14 was evaluated and issued over the m4 type even though they didnt want it...it won. They documented failures obsessively trying to discredit it after adoption...I wont go into details of the results, but it seems they did manage to break one...with some help...

I tried to find someone who objectively had issues with the mini14. Couldn't. Just a bunch of internet hearsay.



I mean for typical civilian use. 0-200 yards in a 3moa group.



Well what has he seen from them? Pat Rogers said the same thing, but had only seen 2 total in his entire career teaching, both run by the same celebrity.

I guess what I am saying is that yes, the ar is more ergonomic, and more modular, and better for many reasons...but I can't find where a mini14 isnt ar least as reliable or durable, but instead my search turns up that they seem moreso.

Horseshit. I don’t know who you talked to but that does not match my experience.

Pat Rogers worked for NYPD when their ESU was using Mini 14 / AC556. So he would have 20 years of exposure to the platform in actual use.

Having worked both in NY and Northern CA, Every NYPD ESU guy I ever talked to regarding mini 14s hated them and had many issues with them. NYPD ESU is vey happy with their Colt M4s.

CDCR’s guns get shot for quals, and are used as tower / catwalk guns and on high risk transports. They aren’t seeing high round counts unless they are a dedicated pool gun used for the range.

When I was working in CA we shared a range with the local CHP. They were in the process of swapping out mini 14’s for DRMO M16A1’s. They didn’t have much good to say about the Minis and the DRMO Guns were sought after. I can’t speak to their SIG M 400 transition as that occurred after I left CA.

RE: helicopter issues - that sounds like Riverside County SO. They have been using mini 14s for decades and have stuck with them for political / appearance reasons. However, you comments don’t make sense - the open action of the mini 14 is more exposed to dirt and grit than the closed action of an AR, particularly with the dust cover closed.

For example:



Another issue with AR’s and grit is the myth, often perpetuated in the military that ARs should be run dry in sandy conditions. Lube does attract grit but a lubed AR with grit will still run better than a dry AR with grit.

[Unobtanium]

Pat Rogers worked for NYPD when their ESU was using Mini 14 / AC556. They haded them and had many issues with them.

Mini 14's are generally not up to the task due to lack of ergonomics and fragility. I don't believe that we ever had one that lasted for the whole week.

--Pat Rogers

When pushed a bit further, he explains...

I have only had two minis in a carbine class. A TV crew did a 13 part series for the outdoor channel on Gunsite last year. The star was given a carbine- a mini- by the distributor. I recommended two. Both went TU by Thur and she finished the class with my M4. One gun lost headspace immediately. The other had a defective trigger group, with multiple problems.

-Pat Rogers.


So basically "generally fragile" turns into "sample of 2, which had factory defects and were never test-fired before class". I believe Yeager has a similar tale. I don't know anything about McNamara on this. I find it interesting that as of 2002, Pat Rogers bases his explanation that Mini-14's are fragile on a sample of 2 in a class, rather than "The NYPD..." .

[Talionis]

I too only have a small sample size of direct experience with mini-14's. A sample size of three to be exact. Of those three, would you like to know how many could be trusted to make it through a magazine without some form of malfunction? Zero.

For reference, one was a somewhat recent production regular joe owned mini, the other two were San Bernadino SO guns. Can't say it left a particularly favorable impression of the gun for me.