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Thread: Best Total All round Dry Fire / Laser system

  1. #21
    Site Supporter miller_man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Hearne View Post
    I remain deeply skeptical about the various dry practice laser systems. I think that the Mantis X has some utility, but I don't know anyone who shoots well that uses the laser based systems.

    Why? My take is that dry practice has two main roles. First, to help you develop the kinesthetic index you need to pre-aim the pistol when you rapidly draw. This is accomplished by confirming the pistol alignment with the sights. Second, dry practice teaches you to call your shots. You learn to do this by watching your sights when the hammer or striker falls. This is information that is masked when you live fire and you can ONLY get it in dry practice. Both of these primary task are accomplished by visual information supplied by the sights AND your eyes adjusted to the focal distance of your sights.

    As soon as you start to look at something other than the sights, and at a focal distance other than that of your sights, you are defeating the primary purposes of dry practice. I think an IR laser might help with these concerns since there wouldn't be any flash to observe but a lot of people would be looking at their device to see where the hit registered.

    The only benefit I see to the laser options is that they make dry practice more "entertaining" and may get people to dry practice who might not otherwise because it is boring. For a lot of folks, repeatedly lifting heavy things is boring so they don't do it and never become strong. If you are willing to do the work, dry practice has huge upsides but there is that four letter word: w-o-r-k.

    I think mostly this. I have yet to hear or see some USPSA M or GM talk about getting really good using ďxxĒ dry fire laser/gizmos. Most those guys say the exact opposite.

    Also, putting in the dry practice to get highly skilled is hard work - any highly skilled shooter will tell you that. And I donít hear anything about - fun, exciting or entertaining in hard work. But seeing the benefits of hard work pay off can be lots of fun.

    I do think a rds is the best dry fire aid though. But like John said, ACTUALLY seeing/using your sights and calling your shots as you press the trigger/the gun would fire - is the same thing.
    The stupidity of some people never ceases to amaze me.

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  2. #22
    Member Alpha Sierra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miller_man View Post
    I have yet to hear or see some USPSA M or GM talk about getting really good using ďxxĒ dry fire laser/gizmos. Most those guys say the exact opposite.
    This bears repeating
    Last edited by Alpha Sierra; 06-01-2019 at 02:26 PM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by miller_man View Post
    I think mostly this. I have yet to hear or see some USPSA M or GM talk about getting really good using ďxxĒ dry fire laser/gizmos. Most those guys say the exact opposite.

    Also, putting in the dry practice to get highly skilled is hard work - any highly skilled shooter will tell you that. And I donít hear anything about - fun, exciting or entertaining in hard work. But seeing the benefits of hard work pay off can be lots of fun.

    I do think a rds is the best dry fire aid though. But like John said, ACTUALLY seeing/using your sights and calling your shots as you press the trigger/the gun would fire - is the same thing.
    Mike Seeklander is a high level GM and promotes the Cool Fire which has some recoil/blowback, but heís sponsored by then or takes advertising money from them, and I donít completely trust him. Your point stands. (Airsoft was also supposed to change and the way we train but that didnít pan out either.)

    I would like to try the system Hearne mentioned to work on accuracy and groups. Could it be that most GMs arenít that concerned with extreme accuracy and/or have mastered that part of the game a long time ago and may not realize what the mere mortals need? Just a theory.
    Last edited by BigD; 06-01-2019 at 03:06 PM.

  4. #24
    Member Alpha Sierra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigD View Post
    Could it be that most GMs arenít that concerned with extreme accuracy and/or have mastered that part of the game a long time ago and may not realize what the mere mortals need?
    Can you define "extreme" accuracy and why/when it would be needed?

    How does your definition of extreme accuracy change with the time in which you have to deliver it?

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    Can you define "extreme" accuracy and why/when it would be needed?

    How does your definition of extreme accuracy change with the time in which you have to deliver it?
    It will mean something different to everybody and so my definition of extreme accuracy isnít that important. But since you asked, letís say holding the 9 ring of a B8 at 25 yards for 10 rounds. Do I think Stoeger can do that if he wanted to? Sure. Does he ever have to in a USPSA match? No. (I can tell you for a fact that not every A class production shooter can do that. And you should hear the whining when a 25y target shows up once in a blue moon in a USPSA stage.)


    Time wouldnít change the definition.
    Last edited by BigD; 06-02-2019 at 04:40 PM.

  6. #26
    Member Alpha Sierra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigD View Post
    It will mean something different to everybody and so my definition of extreme accuracy isnít that important. But since you asked, letís say holding the 9 ring of a B8 at 25 yards for 10 rounds. Do I think Stoeger can do that if he wanted to? Sure. Does he ever have to in a USPSA match? No. (I can tell you for a fact that not every A class production shooter can do that. And you should hear the whining when a 25y target shows up once in a blue moon in a USPSA stage.)


    Time wouldnít change the definition.
    The reason I ask is this. You said
    Could it be that most GMs arenít that concerned with extreme accuracy and/or have mastered that part of the game a long time ago and may not realize what the mere mortals need?
    Where does the need for this so called extreme accuracy come from?
    Last edited by Alpha Sierra; 06-02-2019 at 05:46 PM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Sierra View Post
    The reason I ask is this. You said


    Where does the need for this so called extreme accuracy come from?
    Yeah, when I saw who I was responding to I figured it was headed this way.

    You can go argue with someone else. I'm not interested in getting into a drawn out discussion with you. And by you, I mean @Alpha Sierra, specifically.
    Last edited by BigD; 06-02-2019 at 10:58 PM.

  8. #28
    Member Alpha Sierra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigD View Post
    Yeah, when I saw who I was responding to I figured it was headed this way.

    You can go argue with someone else. I'm not interested in getting into a drawn out discussion with you. And by you, I mean @Alpha Sierra, specifically.
    Keep on plugging away at 25 yd bullseyes. I'm sure something good will come out of that. Eventually...Ö.

  9. #29
    Site Supporter Les Pepperoni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigD View Post
    Could it be that most GMs arenít that concerned with extreme accuracy and/or have mastered that part of the game a long time ago and may not realize what the mere mortals need? Just a theory.
    I dunno that I've mastered it, but I enjoy PPC, Bullseye and, you know, just working on the fundamentals of marksmanship with something like a .22 (25 yards). I find it very challenging. Practicing for small, distant shots is a good thing, but, taking it too far is how you end up with the discipline of bullseye.

    Reality is that "bullseye-level accuracy" isn't really something you see at a lot of USPSA/IDPA matches. I mean the scoring area is pretty big in both cases: a 8" diameter circle or a 6"x15" rectangle... Hitting something like that, even at a distance of 20 yards isn't out of the question for most shooters.

    The toughest shots are probably head boxes at 10 yards...


    The OP asked about a training system that would help a bunch of things: draws, scoring, etc. I don't know that, outside of the video game or other video game-like systems, there is something that is that holistic...

  10. #30
    Site Supporter Rapid Butterfly's Avatar
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    As a data point, I did just find out you can use CoolFire with Smokeless Range from LaserAmmo. Iím exploring the idea of combining those two. Then I could use one of my own weapons instead of using eg a converted Airsoft in which I canít reverse the mag release and which has different sights to my weapons.

    I do at least some low tech dry fire every non live fire day, but see possible advantages in transitioning from da to SA without breaking grip to cock the hammer (as Iím a hammer fired beretta girl) and also maybe working on my speed. If I can figure it out and commit Iíll post back with what worked.

    I did read the most recent thread on CoolFire and understand that user had mixed opinions, so Iím still thinking. 400 bucks plus consumables is a big commitment, for that half of the idea.
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