Iron Sights vs Bead vs ??? for HD Shotgun

[willie]

My shotguns hit where I look as a result of using one for 60 years. For me a bead works well, and when shooting buckshot, I intentionally aim using the bead. My suggestion(and one that would work for me too)is to choose simple open sights that allow the shooter to see daylight on either side of the font post, which should have a tritium insert. I dislike big, bulky "complicated" sights like ghost rings which clutter my view. Remington rifle type sights on some hunting and some law enforcement models work well for hunting, but I avoid them on security shotguns.

[GyroF-16]

Red dots work on shotguns too, but most mounts keep them too high. The Aridus mounts are the best of the optic mount options because it places the dot of the optic directly in the center of your focus when you mount the gun.

Okay- what’s the issue with having a RDS “too high”?
I’ve got a 1301T, and with the OEM stock, my thumb hits my nose in recoil, even with a 1” spacer. I have a long-ish neck, so when I lower my head to look through the sights, it goes forward a bit.
So I went to the Magpul stock (Thanks, Aaron!), and that raises the receiver bit. Then heeded Daryl’s advice and looked for an RDS. I got a MRO with a low mount, and it seems to work well (disclaimer- no shotgun classes yet... DB- when are you running your next one?).
I can see that a T-1 would be a bit lower. And a T-1 on an Aridus sight lower yet.
So is the advantage of a lower sight that it is similar to irons, for those that have decades of muscle memory mounting a gauge using a bead or ghost ring sights? Or is there an deeper inherent advantage in having an RDS mounted as low as feasible?

[OlongJohnson]

In addition to my astigmatism that limits a red dot to a shotgun-inside-house solution, I have some other weird defect the eye doctor can't seem to identify that makes me unable to use standard notch-and-post rifle sights on a long gun. The front sight is tack-sharp right up until it drops in the notch, then it becomes a fuzzy football. All that and still better than 20-20 on the eye chart, even in middle age. Fortunately, a ghost ring setup doesn't have the issues like the notch, and works well.

I have a Williams firesight ghost ring setup on an 870 barrel. It went right on the Rem rifle sight bases - was labeled as such. I really like the sight picture and speed. Having the rear ring a little farther away reduces the sight radius compared to a 1301T, but I think the slightly sharper (more in focus due to being closer to the front sight) ring at least evens that out, if not beating it. Haven't done back to back tests between the Beretta and the Remmy... I really should. Unfortunately, Williams' site sucks and I can't find that part. I like it enough that I'm piecing together a similar setup for a Marlin 1894.

To the OP, be sure the clearance barrels aren't rifled slug gun barrels. Some or all Brennekes may work in them, but buck won't.

[Unobtanium]

Okay- what’s the issue with having a RDS “too high”?
I’ve got a 1301T, and with the OEM stock, my thumb hits my nose in recoil, even with a 1” spacer. I have a long-ish neck, so when I lower my head to look through the sights, it goes forward a bit.
So I went to the Magpul stock (Thanks, Aaron!), and that raises the receiver bit. Then heeded Daryl’s advice and looked for an RDS. I got a MRO with a low mount, and it seems to work well (disclaimer- no shotgun classes yet... DB- when are you running your next one?).
I can see that a T-1 would be a bit lower. And a T-1 on an Aridus sight lower yet.
So is the advantage of a lower sight that it is similar to irons, for those that have decades of muscle memory mounting a gauge using a bead or ghost ring sights? Or is there an deeper inherent advantage in having an RDS mounted as low as feasible?

The advantage of putting the RDS on the same plane as the irons is that you don't have to "hunt" for it. You bring the gun up, and there it is.

[mtnbkr]

To the OP, be sure the clearance barrels aren't rifled slug gun barrels. Some or all Brennekes may work in them, but buck won't.

They aren't. That was one of the first things I checked.

Having been keeping up with this thread, I'm not sure the shooting high with a bead thing is a universal issue. It certainly hasn't been for me. My gun in its current form (there's a pic of it in the gauge pic thread) shoots to point of aim at any household distance. I've used a bead-equipped shotgun my entire life for small game hunting and clay games, so I'm comfortable with the mechanics, but I was intrigued by the comment about sights having benefits in unusual situations. With the price of these barrels, I think I'm going to give them a try.

Chris

[TCinVA]

Okay- what’s the issue with having a RDS “too high”?

A good repeatable cheek weld is useful to index the gun on target quickly. When the RDS is mounted too high, you sacrifice a little bit of speed at closer ranges because you bring the gun up as normal, then have to hunt a little bit to find the dot because it isn't presented in the center of your vision. When the dot is lower you can pick up a little bit of speed since the dot is a simpler aiming mechanism.

[03RN]

A good repeatable cheek weld is useful to index the gun on target quickly. When the RDS is mounted too high, you sacrifice a little bit of speed at closer ranges because you bring the gun up as normal, then have to hunt a little bit to find the dot because it isn't presented in the center of your vision. When the dot is lower you can pick up a little bit of speed since the dot is a simpler aiming mechanism.

On top of that shotguns kick hard enough that poor cheek welds will be felt.

I actually like my RDS a lower 1/3 on my ARs but I'm not worried about how my face will feel after a couple hundred rounds.

[Aray]

@TCinVA and I disagreed quite a bit when we first discussed his thoughts on bead sights in regards to new shooters. Then I realized that I have been using a bead sighted shotgun for over 38 years (ouch).

I have no real remembrance of what it was like to learn to use a bead sight because I was 8 years old when I started, but I have seen new adult shooters struggle with them. I really believe that a quality RDS with BUIS is a really good setup for someone who is learning to use a defensive shotgun from ground zero. I could wax poetic about mastering iron sights first before using a RDS and tell people to "Get off my lawn" but the reality is, most adult students aren't willing and/or able to put the time in to build that proficiency. RDS are also much more forgiving when used from improvised/compromised positions which don't allow for a proper mount.

[GJM]

A consideration is the stock on your shotgun, and ideally your sighting system will be located so you have a natural cheek weld, which promotes fast/accurate shooting and comfort when shooting heavy loads. Some stocks, like the Magpul and Benelli Comfortech, allow you to adjust comb height, but many other stocks are not adjustable. Older Benelli rifle sight barrels, for example, have the sights so low, it smashes my cheek bone when firing Brenneke slugs. Some red dot mounts place the optic so high, you have to lift your face to see the dot, which hurts speed while unnecessarily increasing bore/optic offset.

[jlw]

I had a bead/pedestal 870P that would throw good buck patterns, but I had to KY windage slugs in at 50 yards by holding over the target's right shoulder. While I liked the speed of the bead, my eyes began to object once in their fourth decade. That shotgun now has a set of MMC ghost rings on it.

I have several shotguns with various ghost ring setups, but I prefer the sight picture from my rifle sighted 870P. I replaced the factory sights with Trijicon night sights. I'm faster with them than I am ghost rings.

I have little relevant experience with the XS V-rear and big dot front.

I have little relevant experience with a red dot equipped shotgun. I did recently put a RMR on an 870 and sighted it in with Brenneke slugs. It's purpose will be for planned vehicle take downs.

I will probably sacrifice one of the ghost ring equipped shotgun to try the "Haught mod". I think I would like the more open sight picture.