Iron Sights vs Bead vs ??? for HD Shotgun

[03RN]

Thanks for posting the links. I'm headed out for work.

Scalarworks website has the same price/free shipping. I wish I ordered from Brownells though. Active junky has 7% back

[nalesq]

Speaking of the ability to adjust sights, does anyone know what size Allen/hex wrench is used to adjust the elevation screw for the Remington 870 rear rifle notch sight?


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[Toonces]

TC's 2 cents on shotgun sights:

Snip...good info...

That same sight on an 18" or shorter barrel with a stock that has a 11"-13" length of pull is a very different thing altogether. This is why when the old school users of the shotgun as a defensive weapon fired it, they talked about a "belly button" hold...because the bead sights of the day sat so low that when they were visible in the sight picture on a shorter barreled gun the weapon was actually angled up significantly. You aimed at the belly button to hit dude in the chest.

Snip...Lots of good info...

So I thought to myself...This has to be wrong, I went 17/22 at a (the easiest sporting clays course I've ever shot, McMiller in Eagle, WI) sporting clays course with my 14" (registered) SBS, shooting low gun. I didn't bother with the long shots as it is cylinder bore after being chopped. I also went 44/50 that day with my normal (skeet) O/U shotgun. It was an exceptionally good day for me, even though I should have had 47/50.

So I went out with a box of 7/8 oz Federal slugs, a box of #1 Federal Flight Control buckshot, and a box of my 7/8 oz skeet reloads to see what's up. I was shooting at 15 paces (later measured at 40 feet with the help of my 6 year old daughter), which I figured was a very long shot in my house. Using my 870 with a 14" barrel and no bead/front sight, the pictures pretty much tell the tale.

Pic 1 is 2 rounds of #1 buck, 2 rounds of slug, and 1 round of 7/8 oz #9. I was shooting each shot from a quick low gun mount. You can see the two rounds of #1 buck at 3 and 12 o'clock, along with the wad marks. I initially thought the two slugs went 6" high at 12 o'clock, but I don't know what the third hole at 9 o'clock is. One of those three round holes is the wad... The #9 averaged well high of my aiming point as well, at 12 o'clock.




Pic 2, I fired three rounds of slug at the knot, slow fire, with a careful mount and controlled trigger pull. The three holes are about 4.5" above my aiming point. You can see the marks from the wads. Those marks are probably as deep as the #9 shot.


Pic 3, I fired two rounds of #1 buck, with a careful mount and controlled trigger pull.


Pic 4 is what happens when you are walking through brush with your SBS on the top of your shooting bag. Time for disassembly and cleaning...

As for how does it happen... new shooter that thinks a shotgun is easy to shoot. With a bead sight, you don’t want to see barrel when sighting. You lose the bead behind the receiver aiming low, so for those that just put the bead on the target (with the barrel in sight picture), the barrel is aiming high.

Only way I could liken it is if you were aiming your pistol with the front sight noticeably higher than the rear. Looking along the top of the slide, with the sight dots making an isosceles triangle.

This has nothing to do with a bead sight on a shotgun, and everything to do with someone screwing up their sight picture. It happens with every type of sight and (unbelievably) optic. At 25 yards. Or less. With no time pressure. And no one shooting back. Crap...

Beads can be used effectively, no doubt. Using 18" defensive shotguns in uncomfortable shooting positions would be much more difficult.

How long is that barrel?

I agree that GRS are not ideal for flying things but that doesn't mean it's impossible.
Attachment 24397

Skill trumps a lot of things. And my dog looked a lot less impressed after I got back in from shooting.

[41magfan]

Speaking of the ability to adjust sights, does anyone know what size Allen/hex wrench is used to adjust the elevation screw for the Remington 870 rear rifle notch sight?


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Both screws on my XS Remington sight have slotted heads.

[TCinVA]

So I thought to myself...This has to be wrong, I went 17/22 at a (the easiest sporting clays course I've ever shot, McMiller in Eagle, WI) sporting clays course with my 14" (registered) SBS, shooting low gun. I didn't bother with the long shots as it is cylinder bore after being chopped. I also went 44/50 that day with my normal (skeet) O/U shotgun. It was an exceptionally good day for me, even though I should have had 47/50.

So I went out with a box of 7/8 oz Federal slugs, a box of #1 Federal Flight Control buckshot, and a box of my 7/8 oz skeet reloads to see what's up. I was shooting at 15 paces (later measured at 40 feet with the help of my 6 year old daughter), which I figured was a very long shot in my house. Using my 870 with a 14" barrel and no bead/front sight, the pictures pretty much tell the tale.

Pic 1 is 2 rounds of #1 buck, 2 rounds of slug, and 1 round of 7/8 oz #9. I was shooting each shot from a quick low gun mount. You can see the two rounds of #1 buck at 3 and 12 o'clock, along with the wad marks. I initially thought the two slugs went 6" high at 12 o'clock, but I don't know what the third hole at 9 o'clock is. One of those three round holes is the wad... The #9 averaged well high of my aiming point as well, at 12 o'clock.



Pic 2, I fired three rounds of slug at the knot, slow fire, with a careful mount and controlled trigger pull. The three holes are about 4.5" above my aiming point. You can see the marks from the wads. Those marks are probably as deep as the #9 shot.


Pic 3, I fired two rounds of #1 buck, with a careful mount and controlled trigger pull.


Pic 4 is what happens when you are walking through brush with your SBS on the top of your shooting bag. Time for disassembly and cleaning...

Nice work.

The vented rib on your rather fetching 870 SBS gives an advantage with a short barrel, as it sits high enough off the barrel so that it's only shooting moderately high. This is what the Remington pedestal bead is meant to accomplish, move the bead up higher so it is visible in the sight picture without the gun being inappropriately tilted. Trouble is that the pedestal bead is meant for an 18" barrel and as best I can tell they use the same height sight on the shorter barrels, too.

In the old days when people were using cut down Winchester model 12 shotguns and such the bead sat much, much lower and the problem was worse. I have a model 1300 Defender I picked up cheap and the factory bead on that gun sits right on the barrel. It's so low I can't use it with anything shorter than the Winchester youth stock for that gun that has about a 13" LOP....and even then it is rather uncomfortable to shoot because I have to drive my head hard into the stock to make the bead useful. I tried using the gun with a 12" LOP Hogue stock and it was shooting almost a foot high at 10 yards. Eventually I'm going to replace the front bead on that gun with something more useful...just too many things going on at once at the moment.

[Tabasco]

Speaking of the ability to adjust sights, does anyone know what size Allen/hex wrench is used to adjust the elevation screw for the Remington 870 rear rifle notch sight?


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2mm works with mine.

[GJM]

I have 14 inch shotguns with vent ribs with a fiber optic bead, vent ribs with a tritium bear, open rifle style sights, ghost ring sights, and ghost ring sights with a tunable sized aperture, T 1/2 mounted on the receiver via Scalar Works mounts or otherwise, and the Aimpoint S1 on the rib. All are viable options, depending upon what you want to accomplish, but the T1/2 gives me the most control with slugs, and a vent rib with an enhanced and zeroed bead on a vent rib is the simplest/lowest profile option, especially with buck.

[nalesq]

2mm works with mine.

Thanks!

I would greatly prefer a flat head screw. I hate having to deal with tiny hex screws. I’m sure there is some engineering reason why tiny hex screws are used for applications like these, but besides the nuisance of trying to figure out what size they are and having the exact correct wrench for it, they seem to be too easy for laypersons to overtighten to the point where there is no easy way of getting them out again.


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[41magfan]

Thanks!

I would greatly prefer a flat head screw. I hate having to deal with tiny hex screws. I’m sure there is some engineering reason why tiny hex screws are used for applications like these, but besides the nuisance of trying to figure out what size they are and having the exact correct wrench for it, they seem to be too easy for laypersons to overtighten to the point where there is no easy way of getting them out again.


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Apparently, this is a fairly recent change as my factory iron-sighted barrel isn't that old. I just checked and the current part # replacement (elevation screw) is a hex-head while the windage screw remains a slotted head screw. Go figure ....

[Poconnor]

PE Kelley- tell us more about those sights, who installed them and what kind are they?