Iron Sights vs Bead vs ??? for HD Shotgun

[mtnbkr]

Crud. They sold out before I could get back out there.

I did find out by checking specs after I returned home that these were 20" barrels and not 18" like I assumed.

Anyway, learned a lot in this thread and will be reconsidering my shotgun sighting options. I won't be able to make any changes before my class in May, but depending on what the class shows me, I may make some adjustments later this year.

FWIW, I did some practice mounts with the gun and the bead comes up to perfect alignment every time. I'm always looking straight down the top of the receiver with the bead just hovering over top of it and no barrel visible. At this point, my only concerns are "awkward position" shooting and >25yds slug shooting (which isn't relevant for home or property defense in my current abode).

Chris

[TCinVA]

TC's 2 cents on shotgun sights:

People get 9 kinds of fucked up about shotguns due to persistent myths. The shotgun as typically used by hunters is shooting at a bird at 15-40 yards with a cloud of lead 5-10x times the size of the bird at 30 yards. The typical defensive use of a shotgun happens at closer range with a completely different munition.

The bead sight was designed for wing shooting...and that with a 24"-30" barrel on a gun with a stock that has a length of pull of 14".

That same sight on an 18" or shorter barrel with a stock that has a 11"-13" length of pull is a very different thing altogether. This is why when the old school users of the shotgun as a defensive weapon fired it, they talked about a "belly button" hold...because the bead sights of the day sat so low that when they were visible in the sight picture on a shorter barreled gun the weapon was actually angled up significantly. You aimed at the belly button to hit dude in the chest.

The pedestal bead on the Remington 870 barrels can work...IF your ammo shoots to the point of aim of the bead (a lot simply won't) and IF you have enough experience mounting the shotgun to get a rock solid aiming reference in a hurry. This is not automatic. In the old days everybody grew up shooting shotguns...those days are no more. So you cannot count on people getting a rock solid reliable mount because they're doing something they've done since they were 10.

Knowing what a proper bead-sighted sight picture looks like is difficult to do in a hurry unless you have significant experience doing that...and most people do not have that experience.

If you want to see that in action, go to a shotgun class where they do some patterning. In my Home Defense Shotgun course I had the class pattern their guns at 15 yards. On top of loads that performed poorly, several of the students struggled to get a correct aiming reference under ideal lighting conditions in slow-fire. Some of the guns patterned off center. One fellow who showed up with a 14" 870 with a 12" LOP stock shot so high his patterns were barely on target.

You can do quality work with a bead IF your gun is set up right and IF you have considerable experience successfully using the bead. Even then, it's somewhat difficult if I take you out of a comfortable shooting position and make you use the shotgun the way Ed Mireles had to use his 12 gauge in the Miami Firefight.

For what we are trying to do, for the munitions we are using for defensive use of the shotgun, the bead is what I would consider an expert level sight...as in you must be pretty damn handy with a shotgun to intelligently direct a decently patterning buckshot load or a slug into a target with one at any realistic defensive distance.

I greatly prefer rifle-style sights on a defensive shotgun. I prefer them because having a visible rear reference takes the guess work out of the shot. I can get a shit mount because of an awkward shooting position, because it's sleeting and I'm wearing enough insulation to make me look like the Michelin Man, or because I just got woke up by my door getting smashed in and I fuck up the mount in all the excitement...and I can still get a quick read on how the gun is oriented, correct it, and then make the shot I need to make.

I can also adjust rifle style sights to match the point of impact of the load that I'm using so I don't have to try and remember any Kentucky windage when there's a dude trying to kill me. Remember that at typical defensive distances even shitty buckshot is going to be in a relatively tight pattern that you can miss with EASILY. Rifle style sights are the best bet for delivering the defensive payloads we are using reliably.

...which is why, when you think about it, shotguns dedicated to deer hunting typically have rifle style sights. Because putting a deer down humanely is fundamentally a very similar process to what we're trying to do in self defense with the shotgun.

The XS sights for the Remington 870 rifle sights work extremely well for our purposes. Think about it: Express sights were mounted on big bore long guns to be used on dangerous game at relatively close range. That's pretty much exactly what we are trying to do with shotguns. At close range they provide a quick sight reference that you can use to reliably make head shots with ease out to 15 yards if your buckshot patterns well enough to hold that size of a pattern. Same with slugs.

The defensive shotgun is the one place where the XS sights make any sense.

Ghost rings also work well. Depends on your preference. My go-to 870's have Remington rifle-style sights with either XS sights or the Tru-Glo TFX pro sights on them:

https://www.truglo.com/firearms-tact...366B7DDEB2FF93

Whatever 870 rifle style sight you pick, use some blue loc-tite and put some witness marks on the front and rear with a silver sharpie so you can tell if anything comes loose.

My 1301's have the factory ghost rings and they're fine.

Red dots work on shotguns too, but most mounts keep them too high. The Aridus mounts are the best of the optic mount options because it places the dot of the optic directly in the center of your focus when you mount the gun.

I'm quoting this because I have a couple of updated bits to share:

1. Last Friday I went through Pat Goodale's Defensive Shotgun class and we did a fair bit of work from the weak shoulder, running the gun one handed, and shooting from awkward positions. It's fair to say when you're using a Remington 870 weak-shoulder-only you are well outside your comfort zone and you probably have a sub-optimal mount...but with rifle sights I still had no problem hitting. It was downright easy.

We also did a fair bit of work with slugs at distance. Shooting from your weak shoulder to engage a 15 yard target and then having to slug select and hit another target 50 yards away from your weak shoulder in an awkward shooting position really shows the value of good rifle-style sights on your shotgun. Most people were shooting rifle style sights. The few running bead-only in the class were struggling mightily.

2. I actually had the pleasure of sitting down with Ed Mireles for dinner Tuesday night and I had the chance to ask him about use of the shotgun. He told me that he was a step ahead of most folks in his agency because he actually checked out a gun that he used the whole time he was working the violent crimes unit and he cleaned and maintained it himself rather than just grabbing a random shotgun from the armory. He told me that despite this, he'd never patterned his shotgun with the agency issued buckshot and to his knowledge neither had anyone else.

He also told me that while he was a young pup in the Feeb an older agent who had been a USMC Captain took him under the wing and due to Ed being a big strong former Marine encouraged him to do some unusual things. Like pull-ups in the bathroom during lunch breaks.

And...doing some dry work with the shotgun one handed.

[Tabasco]

Like pull-ups in the bathroom during lunch breaks.

And...doing some dry work with the shotgun one handed.

Learning to do pull-ups is probably the single best thing I've done to improve my shooting. My grip strength improved dramatically. I'm not great, but I shoot better than I should considering my lack at times of actual range time. That, and dry firing. I was 255lbs when I first tried and it took me 8 months to be able to do one. After one, 2,3,4+ just tool a little more work. For all y'all who say you cant do them, yes you can. It just takes dedication. If you manage to loose weight, it get easier.

[Tensaw]

Tabasco - Thanks for that nugget. That's all the nudge I needed to start getting after pull-ups. The things you learn in a shotgun thread on PF....

[Tabasco]

Tabasco - Thanks for that nugget. That's all the nudge I needed to start getting after pull-ups. The things you learn in a shotgun thread on PF....

What I did to work up to my first successful pull-up:

Find a bar, you can get one of those bars that fits in a door frame. Mine's in my garage so it don't ugly up my house. I was lucky when I lived in San Francisco, there are numerous par courses the City set up around town, almost all have pull up bars.

Get a step stool, and step up where the bar is at chin level. Grab the bar, I use palms facing away, kick the stool away and slowly lower yourself. Do this multiple times. This gets your arms and back muscles accustomed to dealing with your full body weight.

Lat pull-downs with a weight machine if you have access to one. Increase the weight over time.

I was lucky that one of the par courses has these real low bars, I think intended for people who have trouble doing a real push up on the ground. I sort of did a reverse push up my puting my heels on the ground, hanging by my arms in push up position and pulling up to my neck. I read somewhere that Jump School in the Army has something similar. This was helpful getting my biceps in shape. The hardest part is conditioning your back muscles that don't really get used unless you do a pull up.

Don't do pull ups every day, especially if you are older. Give your body time to recover. I started when I was 37, am now 50+ and still keep at it. Age is no excuse. I do them every other day. If something comes up and you are unable to do them for a month, don't fret, it will take a few months before your ability will degrade to the point where they will be difficult and you might have to start over. It's a great way to burn off excess blood sugar, and provides real usable strength.

I max out at 10 or 11 reps, no real reason go higher unless you wan't to or jump out of aircraft for a living. I also do them in 'ladders' 1-2-3-4-5-5-4-3-2-1. I'm not a motivated fitness nut, but have managed to keep this up, along with push ups for 15+ years. Something is better than nothing.

Sorry for the thread drift...

[Ed L]

I'm quoting this because I have a couple of updated bits to share:

1. Last Friday I went through Pat Goodale's Defensive Shotgun class and we did a fair bit of work from the weak shoulder, running the gun one handed, and shooting from awkward positions. It's fair to say when you're using a Remington 870 weak-shoulder-only you are well outside your comfort zone and you probably have a sub-optimal mount...but with rifle sights I still had no problem hitting. It was downright easy.

We also did a fair bit of work with slugs at distance. Shooting from your weak shoulder to engage a 15 yard target and then having to slug select and hit another target 50 yards away from your weak shoulder in an awkward shooting position really shows the value of good rifle-style sights on your shotgun. Most people were shooting rifle style sights. The few running bead-only in the class were struggling mightily.

2. I actually had the pleasure of sitting down with Ed Mireles for dinner Tuesday night and I had the chance to ask him about use of the shotgun. He told me that he was a step ahead of most folks in his agency because he actually checked out a gun that he used the whole time he was working the violent crimes unit and he cleaned and maintained it himself rather than just grabbing a random shotgun from the armory. He told me that despite this, he'd never patterned his shotgun with the agency issued buckshot and to his knowledge neither had anyone else.

He also told me that while he was a young pup in the Feeb an older agent who had been a USMC Captain took him under the wing and due to Ed being a big strong former Marine encouraged him to do some unusual things. Like pull-ups in the bathroom during lunch breaks.

And...doing some dry work with the shotgun one handed.

Both of yours were excellent posts, as was your review of the Pat Goodall class.

Reading your post I can definitely see the value of something other than a bead sight--even for just buckshot at home defense distances.

I think there is a huge disconnect between what most people buy and use as a home defense shotgun vs. what is covered in a class like the one you described. I am not at all criticizing the class--it sounds like a well run comprehensive class.

But most people who have a shotgun for home defense have some type of Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 with an 18" barrel and bead sights. If it is a Remington 870 it likely has a magazine extension to allow it to hold 5-6 rounds in the magazine. In saying "most people" I am not referring to members of this forum who post in this category.

They bought it for less than half the price of an AR and they envision it as something to use in home defense with buckshot at a max range of 15 yards.

For someone like this, slugs would not even enter into the picture.

Guns like this would be very limited in the class you described.

Hopefully these people have at least tried their guns with different buckshot to found the load that shot closest to point of aim.

Hell, I have a 90s vintage Benelli Super90M1 with rifle sights that required me to remove the clamp between the magazine tube and the barrel because the pressure it was exerting was causing the gun to shoot buckshot so that it impacted mostly on the right side of a silhouette target at 50 feet. With the clamp removed it shot dead on.

A lot of people who have an AR as a primary home defense longarm may also have some type of pump shotgun, but it often falls into the basic category.

I can definitely see the value of a gun like the Beretta 1301, which seems custom made for the class you described, as well as a perfect platform for improvements, like a 2 round magazine extension and even mounting a red dot sight.

There is something about shotguns that make a lot of people want to keep them clean and basic. In years past, when the prices were lower and quality from the factory was higher, a lot of people picked up a pump action shotgun with an 18" barrel and bead sight and called it good. It was seen as a home defense weapon that was ready to go out of the box. This is especially the case if you lived someplace where it was easier to legally buy a longarm than a handgun. I've always told people that a pump shotgun requires patterning and practice operating, but sadly many people who buy it strictly for home defense fire a limited number of rounds through it and call it good.

[TCinVA]

Hopefully these people have at least tried their guns with different buckshot to found the load that shot closest to point of aim.

That's actually one of the reasons I harp on this point.

I've seen a number of students come through my classes and in other people's classes with bead sights that consistently had problems hitting once placed under any sort of stress. An example from my most recent Shotgun Skills class:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....18-Culpeper-Va

I struggled with putting my shots where I wanted them once we got past 7yds or so. I never had a problem in lower pressure range trips, so to have it happen in class repeatedly was disheartening.

You're right in that the typical person with a shotgun for home defense and sadly even in law enforcement is using a bead sighted gun that they haven't really put to the test either in terms of really evaluating their performance or the ammo they're feeding the gun.

Hopefully we can make a dent in that with discussions like this and training.

[Drang]

Saw a couple of mentions of RMRs. What size dot do folks recommend?

[Unobtanium]

That's actually one of the reasons I harp on this point.

I've seen a number of students come through my classes and in other people's classes with bead sights that consistently had problems hitting once placed under any sort of stress. An example from my most recent Shotgun Skills class:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....18-Culpeper-Va



You're right in that the typical person with a shotgun for home defense and sadly even in law enforcement is using a bead sighted gun that they haven't really put to the test either in terms of really evaluating their performance or the ammo they're feeding the gun.

Hopefully we can make a dent in that with discussions like this and training.

Yep. I've had bead sighted guns that shot FEET off target at 15 yards. Then I've had some that were dead on.

[JHC]

That's actually one of the reasons I harp on this point.

I've seen a number of students come through my classes and in other people's classes with bead sights that consistently had problems hitting once placed under any sort of stress. An example from my most recent Shotgun Skills class:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....18-Culpeper-Va



You're right in that the typical person with a shotgun for home defense and sadly even in law enforcement is using a bead sighted gun that they haven't really put to the test either in terms of really evaluating their performance or the ammo they're feeding the gun.

Hopefully we can make a dent in that with discussions like this and training.

The bead on my 870 barrel was spot on for FCC buck. I painted the bead white to improve visibility of it in low light.

Then, in fading light at dusk I convinced a big doe to investigate my bleating. She was very cagey, very cautious. At the last possible minute of shooting light she gave me a silhouette of her neck at like 15 yards. BOOM. I fucking missed. I realized my error after. In the poor light I wanted to see my white bead really well and . . . elevated it to see more of it and shot over her neck. She even ducked and hauled ass. Zero blood.

I then placed an order for an 18.5" cylinder barrel with Rem rifle lights and zeroed. Slugs and FCC to same POI at 25 yards. The white dot and white triangle on the rear made all the difference in bagging the buck I just posted in the hunting thread. That shot was in the FIRST minute of shooting light.

I dun learnt my lesson. I missed, "WITH A SHOTGUN???" my hunting buddy bellowed.