Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 42

Thread: Trade offs between sights and trigger

  1. #21
    Leopard Printer Mr_White's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Gaming In The Streets
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich_Jenkins View Post
    I shot a bunch of controlled pairs into a 3x5 at 7 yards. I put 18/20 inside the box, basically shot them all into one ragged hole. I was shooting pretty quickly. Hmmm.
    YES

    Free yourself by throwing off the yoke of expectation

    Discover what's possible, and work to gather consistency

    Clusterfrack
    One more thought: there are actually two sight variables: alignment and wobble. I think you're saying that trying to eliminate wobble isn't needed, and my conclusion is that alignment on small/distant targets cannot be taken for granted.[/QUOTE]

    I believe I have seen people reporting Kyle Defoor makes that point in class.
    Technical excellence supports tactical preparedness
    Lord of the Food Court
    http://www.gabewhitetraining.com

  2. #22
    Member Larry Sellers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Connecticut
    Something to the tune of angular vs parallel deviation...

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Larry Sellers; 03-11-2018 at 08:19 PM.
    Look! Just because we're bereaved, that doesn't make us saps!

  3. #23
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Historically, when shooting low probability targets, I have tried to hold the sights steady, on the exact spot I am trying to hit, while making the trigger fire the shot. That requires me to manage multiple variables, and after a bunch of that kind of shooting, I have become fatigued.

    This week, as part of five successive range sessions learning to love a Gen5/34 trigger, I decided to accept reasonable sight (or in my case dot) alignment, and essentially leave that alignment alone, while focusing almost exclusively on trigger press. Enough focus on trigger that I am almost “un-anticipating” the shot. That started yesterday, and after firing 400 rounds of very difficult shooting like two inch dots at 7-10 yards, groups on the head box at 25 and further, Bill drills at 30-35 yards, and eight inch steel from 20-35 yards, I was completely refreshed. I finished that session with a ten round group on the head box at 25 yards into about three inches.

    I dry fired that more last night and this morning, and then hit the range today to see whether it was trick of the day or something more meaningful for me. Same result as yesterday, with some of the most consistent high level shooting I have done, except when I decided to quit, completely refreshed, I had fired 700 rounds in around 90 minutes. I then finished with a final ten shot group into the head at 25 yards, into three or four inches.

    My analysis is that a high percentage of the bad shots I fire are due to bad trigger control. Fussing with “extra” sight alignment adds another variable that complicates a smooth trigger press, and may subtract more than it adds. I plan to keep working with this over coming days to see how it develops.
    I haven't read Beyond Fundamentals recently, but I think Enos describes almost the exact same thing in his discussion of "attention."

  4. #24
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    East Greenwich, RI
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    What I think I am saying is that it is easier to manage one variable than two, and so far I like the trade off of less sights, allowing for a less interrupted trigger press.
    Good thread!

    Bruce Gray once told me that focusing on the sights gives our conscious something to do so our subconscious can work the trigger. I think there is an element of truth to that, at least for me. I tend to do my best shooting when I’m not overly thinking about the trigger.

    It was the correct critique of my performance at the time. I’m sure of one thing.....

    When it comes to shooting, there is generally no right answer, just a right answer for the individual.

    We grow as shooters when we try new stuff. Not being able to get to the range for the last couple of months is driving me nuts. I’d like to experiment some more with this.

  5. #25
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Illinois
    Looking at my match video lately, I am a flip and presser....and I hit a large number of alphas in matches when controlling for problems related to transitions and my general slowness.

    Playing around with Gabe Whites focal depth shift has been interesting...I can't quite keep focal depth the whole match, but on targets I have been able to, it has been very accurate.

    Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

  6. #26
    Site Supporter P.E. Kelley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Dry-side of Washington State
    I am old, so I made the sight's journey some years ago...
    "1st Master" and 2nd overall. US poppers out to 35 yards. Tight shots and no-shoots.


    Guns are just machines and without you they can do no harm, nor any good

  7. #27
    Member JHC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    North Georgia
    "Simplify. Always simplify." - Plato

    Shooting with target focus instead of front sight focus validate that it's the trigger. Yesterday I made of point to shoot at 50 yards wearing my glasses instead of monovision contacts. So I had a nice clear bullseye but a completely blurry front post. Press being prioritized when you can't see as much about the sights. And shot a 50 yard PR.

    I suppose with the RDS there can a temptation to chase that dot's wiggling out there.

    Attachment 24381
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

  8. #28
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Rochester Hills, MI
    Quote Originally Posted by LSP552 View Post
    Good thread!

    Bruce Gray once told me that focusing on the sights gives our conscious something to do so our subconscious can work the trigger. I think there is an element of truth to that, at least for me. I tend to do my best shooting when I’m not overly thinking about the trigger.

    It was the correct critique of my performance at the time. I’m sure of one thing.....

    When it comes to shooting, there is generally no right answer, just a right answer for the individual.

    We grow as shooters when we try new stuff. Not being able to get to the range for the last couple of months is driving me nuts. I’d like to experiment some more with this.
    This.

    Personally I find that the less I consciously focus on the trigger the better I generally shoot. Case in point I shot 3 groups of 10 rounds at 25 yards in live fire practice yesterday. My best group of the 3 was an 89-1x (G19.4, Dawson Charger FO front/blacked out rear, G17.3 trigger bar with stock internals lightly polished, #gadget). The round pulled left was me not counter-torquing enough with the support hand so I refocused. The low shot was poor lighting with essentially black sights. All of my conscious attention was on the front sight and almost nothing but.




    Sent from mah smertfone using tapathingy

  9. #29
    Site Supporter 41magfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    NC
    I thought it might be appropriate to interject something for the uninitiated that might be viewing this thread;

    We're not talking about muzzle orientation and trigger pull being mutually exclusive elements since each and every shot requires a certain amount of both. You can't arbitrarily neglect one at the expense of the other. In fact, that is the mark of an accomplished shooter - knowing how much of each is necessary to get a proper hit.

    If you're struggling with grasping this concept, enlist the help of a fellow shooter and let them pull the trigger for you while you work the sights. For this to have maximum benefit, the "Coach" should place his finger over the shooters finger so the shooter can feel what a controlled trigger pull feels like and experience the "surprise" of the shot breaking.

    When you isolate the two tasks (trigger pull and muzzle orientation) using this exercise, it becomes immediately apparent what matters most. If the shooter is honest, he will admit that the sight picture seldom "appears" to be adequate enough, but hits predictably occur when the trigger is manipulated correctly.

    What's interesting about this exercise is that when the roles are reversed (the student/shooter becomes the Coach pulling the trigger for the Instructor) the same thing occurs - predictable hits. Let me say that again; a student with limited experience pulling the trigger can perform the task adequately when he's not distracted by trying to make the sights look a certain way on the target.

    When I'm successful in getting the shooter to grasp the idea that he must mentally isolate the trigger pull from the visual input his brain is processing, the light bulb will usually come on. When that occurs, the real learning in how to shoot well can begin.

    I hope this isn't seen as a distraction to the thread.
    Last edited by 41magfan; 03-12-2018 at 08:08 AM.
    The path of least resistance will seldom get you where you need to be.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by P.E. Kelley View Post
    I am old, so I made the sight's journey some years ago...
    "1st Master" and 2nd overall. US poppers out to 35 yards. Tight shots and no-shoots.



    Them sights must help you out.....haha

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •