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Thread: Real life application of the "Hostage shot" with a shotgun

  1. #1
    Murder Machine, Harmless Fuzzball TCinVA's Avatar
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    Real life application of the "Hostage shot" with a shotgun

    https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b7a_1519440723

    If you are a responder...whether professionally or forced into that role by circumstances...it is not uncommon to find an innocent entangled in some fashion with a violent criminal who needs to be stopped.

    Because of enduring myths about the shotgun, a lot of people believe it is impossible to safely use buckshot to resolve a problem with that sort of entanglement. This is not the case.

    The old rule of thumb about buckshot is that it spreads 1" for every yard of distance. This is not true with most loads fired through most guns. To wit:



    In the video, Tom fires a load of basic crappy buckshot at 5 yards. Notice that you don't see a 5" spread at 5 yards. The pattern is just a little bit larger than the bore. With a load like Federal Flight Control the pattern would be the same size as the bore at that distance. With most buckshot loads in most shotguns you do not see a smooth, predictable progression of spread over distance in the buckshot. You tend to see significant spread starting somewhere in the 5-10 yard range, with the rate of spread tending to increase further after 15 yards. The old rule of thumb may start to get closer to reality at these extended distances (10 yards and beyond) but it's not very good at predicting pattern size with typical shotguns and typical buckshot loads at the more typical distances where fights happen.

    Of course, the only way to know for sure what your gun will do is to take your gun out with the ammunition you wish to use in it and pattern it at different distances...but even if you are using an untouched cylinder bore 870 with the cheapest buckshot you can find you will likely find that your pattern size at 5 yards is still essentially one big hole.

    There are other useful lessons here, too.

    It's pretty clear the officer in this shooting had his mind wired tight. A few things tell us this:

    - Thinking there is a realistic possibility of a fight, he grabbed something more powerful than his handgun
    - When the officer saw the threat he immediately made his weapon ready and closed distance with the threat
    - The officer did not waste time arguing with the suspect...when he saw some separation between the armed criminal and the hostage he seized the moment and made an instantly incapacitating shot

    This officer was well trained, apparently well practiced, and exhibited the confidence only available to the well prepared. These are significant advantages in a fight. Doing the work matters. SOCAL law enforcement has a history of successfully using the shotgun on the street and the training on the shotgun in some of those agencies is far above the frankly meager level that is the average nation wide. I'd say that played a significant role in what we see here.

    When you really understand the weapon and what you can do with it, the shotgun offers you a decisive advantage in the typical shooting problems faced by citizens and police.
    Last edited by TCinVA; 02-27-2018 at 08:49 AM.
    3/15/2016

  2. #2
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    Decisive

    I put down a crippled deer at about 5 yards with #1 buck Flite Control. Yep, 12 bore entry wound.
    “Remember, being healthy is basically just dying as slowly as possible,” Ricky Gervais

  3. #3
    Site Supporter tanner's Avatar
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    Decisive for sure! Outstanding work by the officer.

  4. #4
    Member Peally's Avatar
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    Saw the video today.

    Spread isn't much of an issue if you touch the guy's face with the muzzle first
    Semper Gumby, Always Flexible

  5. #5
    What is current thinking on the potential for the wad to strike outside the buckshot pattern, possibly injuring a hostage? Does the Federal Flight Control load have any improvements in this regard.

    A number of years ago, Awerbuck/Jeans/Cain/Clint Smith were advocating the Brenneke slug with attached wad in that sort of situation, but I realize things change.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  6. #6
    Site Supporter Lon's Avatar
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    That was impressive. I’d like to buy him a beer.
    Formerly known as xpd54.
    The opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not reflect the opinions or policies of my employer.
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  7. #7
    Site Supporter Coyotesfan97's Avatar
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    OUTSTANDING!!
    Just a dog chauffeur that used to hold the dumb end of the leash.

  8. #8
    Member Peally's Avatar
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    This link has video (on the bottom of the article) with the two body cameras in addition to the IR cam:

    https://www.funker530.com/san-diego-cop-shotgun/
    Semper Gumby, Always Flexible

  9. #9
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peally View Post
    This link has video (on the bottom of the article) with the two body cameras in addition to the IR cam:

    https://www.funker530.com/san-diego-cop-shotgun/
    I thought this ^^^^ video was the one in TC's original post. For those who had the priviledge of training under Awerbuck, looked like a real world application of the multiple mannequin run he used.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    What is current thinking on the potential for the wad to strike outside the buckshot pattern, possibly injuring a hostage? Does the Federal Flight Control load have any improvements in this regard.

    A number of years ago, Awerbuck/Jeans/Cain/Clint Smith were advocating the Brenneke slug with attached wad in that sort of situation, but I realize things change.
    At 25 yards, sometimes it strikes a 14x14 target, sometimes not. At the distance he fired at, I bet it was still POA/POI. That said, he had what gun he had, and he had in it what he had in it, and he was where he was. The planning part had long since been over, and the acting part went well, thankfully for all.

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