Pro AR-15 arguments

[Ed L]

A quote from elsewhere gave me an idea for this topic, even though starting this topic:

As far as defending the ownership of EBRs, I fear that the NRA is incapable of putting forward a coherent and reasoned defense. I hear mostly Wayne LaP ranting in a manner that would convince no one outside of the most dedicated choir. There are good arguments. He's not up to it. I know and discussed with quite a few dedicated gun folks who have doubts about having the guns - they are sincere and not BS experts on the media.

So I thought it would be worth pursuing a topic on good reasons and cogent rationals to counter people who want to ban and restrict AR-15s and similar guns--and do so without things along the line of, "try it and you'll have a civil war."

What are some points to make to defend EBRs?

1. If you look at the Heller decision it said that it applied to guns that are in common use at the time. There are more companies making their version of the AR than any other longarm. According to the National Shooting Sports Federation, one of out of every five firearms purchased in this country is an AR-style rifle, Americans now own an estimated 15 million AR-15s. If we are talking about EBRs, or as I prefer to call them Military style semi-auto rifles, this is not counting the millions of other types out there. A lot of people enjoy owning and shooting ARs for a wide number of reasons, from target shooting to defense.

2. Given these numbers, any type of prohibition or registration is doomed to fail. Hard drugs are illegal and see how well that worked.

4. One argument that I make is that I like to have the same defensive firearms that a police officer would have if he were coming to rescue me in a life threatening situation since he cannot appear instantly if my life is in danger. Many experts consider the AR-15 to be the most effective home defense longarm.

5.If I look at the constitution and the original writers, they saw an armed citizenry as a bulwark against a an out of control government. This one makes me a bit uncomfortable because it gives the vibe of tinfoil hats, but JFK did say this about the second amendment: "By calling attention to “a well regulated militia,” the “security” of the nation, and the right of each citizen “to keep and bear arms,” our founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason I believe the Second Amendment will always be important."

Okay, please add some valid talking points.

[WobblyPossum]

AR-15s and other semi automatic rifles are the most effective and efficient weapon the average American can get his/her hands on. They’re fairly simple to use and tens of millions of Americans are already trained in their use from military service. If I had to defend myself with a firearm, an AR is exactly the kind I would hope to have available. Just look at the recent Texas church shooting where the gentleman grabbed an AR from his gun safe and effectively engaged he shooter. Would he have been just as effective with a pistol or a shotgun? I don’t know, but the AR sure did work. Korean shop keepers were able to put EBRs to good use defending themes elves and their businesses during the LA riots too.

Like it or not, the second amendment was written specifically to stop the government from taking away exactly the kinds of weapons that would be effective to fight government tyranny. It might be awkward to talk about and people might not like the “tin foil vibes” but it is what it is. The Supreme Court has already ruled several times that the second amendment protects weapons in common military use and weapons that are commonly owned by the people. You can’t get much more common than the AR.

As Glenn said, the sporting argument is weak and ineffective. It denies the reality of what these weapons are. We should embrace what they really are. They’re guns. Guns are made for shooting people, and sometimes, some people need to get shot.

A time when our government regularly brutalized its citizens with dogs and fire hoses and violated their rights with terrifying regularity is still in living memory for a lot of people. The civil rights era was only 50 years ago. When the neighborhood KKK members came around, it was firearms that people used to defend themselves.

You can’t even argue that the founding fathers couldn’t have predicted repeating arms when they drafted the bill of rights either. Check out the Girabdoni Air Rifle from 1779. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girandoni_air_rifle Our founders weren’t technologically unimaginative men. Just look at Ben Franklin. It’s safe to say they knew firearms technology would advance and, yet, they still wrote the second amendment to cover “the right of the people to keep and bear arms” without exceptions. Hell, the people at the time owned battleships equipped with cannons


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[OlongJohnson]

I like to compare the AR to the Jeep. Both were designed specifically for fighting in war. Both were used very successfully. Both came home and found millions of peaceful uses, working hard and playing hard, because they are simply the best tool for the job and for the game.

"Nobody needs that much off-pavement mobility!"

It occurs to me that the left also wants to ban Jeeps, except the ones they drive...

Similar arguments could be made for other areas of technology transfer.

[blues]

I like to compare the AR to the Jeep. Both were designed specifically for fighting in war. Both were used very successfully. Both came home and found millions of peaceful uses, working hard and playing hard, because they are simply the best tool for the job and for the game.

"Nobody needs that much off-pavement mobility!"

It occurs to me that the left also wants to ban Jeeps, except the ones they drive...

Similar arguments could be made for other areas of technology transfer.

And I hear that climate change Al Gore liked his private aircraft. Classic "do as I say, not as I do".

[idahojess]

It's a 50+ year old design that has been perfected over the decades to be extremely reliable in its standard form. As DanM noted, they are easy to operate by any citizen for defensive use. It has slight recoil, it's easy to load and unload. (I've tried loading an M-1 Garand with an injured hand -- gave up...)

I don't think the target shooting/sporting use is entirely a non-sequitor. If a gun is easy to shoot accurately (thus fun to shoot), it's more likely that people will be proficient with it.

(I'm not entirely opposed to raising the age limit to 21 for them, but that's a topic for another thread).

[Totem Polar]

...as I prefer to call them Military style semi-auto rifles...

Great idea for a thread. I’ll be following the responses with much interest.

And, man, does that cut to the chase. None of this ‘assault weapon,’ ‘modern sporting,’ actress/model/whateverobfuscation.

Basic semi-auto rifles, styled after long arms used and proven by the military. With much of America firmly ensconced in their camps on this issue, the folks who speak plainly will be the folks coming off with the most credibility in the eyes of the remaining undecided. JMO.

[11B10]

Lord knows I've desired many firearms in my life - but absolutely none more than the AR. I'm fighting an uphill battle on the home front, however. My wife, who recently let her CCL lapse, has had a change of heart with regards to guns in general and AR's in particular. I knew it was getting bad when I showed her the Tom Selleck/American Rifleman item and got no reaction (she adores him and "Blue Bloods"). This is positively due to the children being killed, which has apparently overwhelmed her logic - a common thing these days. So...I'll be following this thread closely.

[HCM]

In Miller vs United States, the Supreme Court upheld the NFA’s prohibition on short barrel shotguns because an SBS was an unsuitable militia weapon.

There is nothing about hunting or sporting weapons in the constitution so theoretically, an AR-15 pattern rifle is the most legally justified firearm one can own in the untitled states.

The AR also tracks with the Heller decision’s “common use” language.

Constitution aside, self defense is a basic human right and the AR is one of the most intuitive and effective fighting tools availible to an individual.

Those who say such a tool isn’t needed speak out of a dunning-Kruger level of ignorance and tend to base their option on one of three sources, all of which are wrong: TV and movies, plinking with a relative or “shotgun Joe” Biden. Psuedo “experts” who were “in the military” but during the Cold War and “qualified” on simulators and 25 meter alternative courses like Fox New’s Col Ralph Peters and Bob Scales would be another category of Dunning - Kruger.

[HCM]

Lord knows I've desired many firearms in my life - but absolutely none more than the AR. I'm fighting an uphill battle on the home front, however. My wife, who recently let her CCL lapse, has had a change of heart with regards to guns in general and AR's in particular. I knew it was getting bad when I showed her the Tom Selleck/American Rifleman item and got no reaction (she adores him and "Blue Bloods"). This is positively due to the children being killed, which has apparently overwhelmed her logic - a common thing these days. So...I'll be following this thread closely.

The fickle nature of people’s “feelings” are why we have a constitution. Look at the people in the Florida School shooting thread arguing the suspect should have been arrested but can’t specify what he should have been arrested for. Some of this is a combination of ignorance and 20/20 hindsight, but most of it is “feelings.”

[Clusterfrack]

A good friend was eating breakfast with his wife and two little kids one Saturday in their suburban Portland home, when a van full of tweakers arrived and brought their domestic dispute to his yard. A second car full of individuals arrived shortly afterward. This escalated to destruction of property and threats. My friend with an AR held at low ready resolved the situation peacefully while his family moved to safety. Portland PD arrived 10 min later.

For defending your family against a group of people, an AR is a good weapon. These things happen.