USPSA Production rules change

[45dotACP]

At least as far as I could tell in a quick perusal of Appendix D4, the rules only say that in Production, guns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal, not that single action guns aren't allowed. I guess that must be the loophole used to justify letting the PPQ, VP9, etc. onto the Production gun list. No external hammer = SAO is just fine.

Heh...beat me to it. Anybody who has ever fired a Sig 320 with a competition trigger by someone like Bruce Gray will have a hard time saying it's not SAO

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[DpdG]

I think most governing bodies treat striker fired, without regard to fully vs. partially tensioned, as an independent type of action separate from single or double action. I can only imagine how hard it would be to legislate the various degrees of tensioning, especially in light of the various aftermarket offerings that drastically alter the characteristics of the host pistols.

Regarding USPSA Production- I'm a hobbyist at best, so I like the "run what ya brung" aspect that seems more in line with what many CCW users carry. I had to buy another factory stock grip frame for my P320 when I started competing, as my carry/practice one had been modified slightly beyond the allowable limits of the old rules. Nothing crazy mind you, just an undercut trigger guard and some minor re-profiling around the mag well.

[olstyn]

I can only imagine how hard it would be to legislate the various degrees of tensioning

Agree to disagree - IMO it's pretty simple:

If pulling the trigger causes significant energy to be stored in the striker and the pistol has the same trigger pull for every shot, it's DAO.
If there's a DA-->SA transition, it's DA/SA. (Obviously very few striker guns fall in this category, but there *are* a few.)
If it's fully tensioned or 99%+ tensioned with weird sear geometry like a P320 that causes the striker to move rearward a tiny distance before releasing, it's SAO.

[DpdG]

In principle I agree, especially with regard to the P99 (and copies) that can be decocked. The problem with differentiating partially vs fully tensioned is they all generally have the same or similar external controls, and manufacturers often classify all DAO even if fully tensioned (for agency policy reasons).

Finally, with the proliferation of fully tensioned carry/duty guns, I don’t think bumping those designs automatically to Limited would be well received participation-wise. I know I wouldn’t want to shoot a factory stock M&P 9mm in Limited if I wanted to be anything resembling competitive, plus putting hem in Limited feels outside the spirit of the classes.

[olstyn]

Finally, with the proliferation of fully tensioned carry/duty guns, I don’t think bumping those designs automatically to Limited would be well received participation-wise. I know I wouldn’t want to shoot a factory stock M&P 9mm in Limited if I wanted to be anything resembling competitive, plus putting hem in Limited feels outside the spirit of the classes.

You're not wrong, and really I'm not arguing that they should be bumped to Limited so much as that we should just be honest about what's going on.

[Tom Duffy]

When I shoot Steel Challenge, I mostly shoot revolver. On occasion I shoot an HK with LEM trigger as a production gun. Where does that stand as legal/illegal per USPSA rules?

[Sal Picante]

At least as far as I could tell in a quick perusal of Appendix D4, the rules only say that in Production, guns with external hammers must be fully decocked at the start signal, not that single action guns aren't allowed. I guess that must be the loophole used to justify letting the PPQ, VP9, etc. onto the Production gun list. No external hammer = SAO is just fine.

Yeah - it doesn't specifically say SAO.

The kicker is that holstering a hammer-fired single action gun with one in the chamber, hammer down (off safe) is a grounds for a DQ ... Some of the other conditions are in section 8(? - I think?)

So... the stage brief specifies if the firearm is loaded and then section 8 (or whatever) specifies the condition... Therefore, hammer-fired single actions can't possibly comply in that case...

Interesting call on some of the other SF guns.

[Sal Picante]

...I like the "run what ya brung" aspect that seems more in line with what many CCW users carry.

Limited Minor is the true "run what ya brung" division...

[Glenn E. Meyer]

One day - there will be a category called - OUT OF THE BOX FOR THE BASE MODEL! As far has 10 round limits in various disciplines, they are a pain and exist to cater to states with bans. But they make me practice reloads and that's ok. I do think it is funny that we plan our execution of a stage around a reload. Will that happen on the street?

[Peally]

Surely you're not serious.