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Thread: Iron Sight Zero

  1. #1
    Site Supporter 41magfan's Avatar
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    Iron Sight Zero

    I've seen this silliness alluded to repeatedly and I just witnessed it again on a Youtube video.

    Vickers is handling a student's new G19X and the student makes some comment about "that's not the mechanical zero for that pistol". I assume the rear sight is sitting right of center. Larry comments that most RH shooters hit left, and LH shooters hit right.

    The student then says "I like 'em set in the middle." Larry asked "Can you shoot it that way?" The student replies, "Yea, I think so ..... yea." The look on Larry's face to that remark is absolutely p r i c e l e s s!

    As many as half of the agency issued Glock's I've test-fired and issued (several hundred guns in all) needed the rear sight moved slightly right of center to zero. I've read some pretty mindless commentary on why this occurs and to be quite truthful, I really don't care why it is what it is.

    I would like to think it's reasonable logic to presume that adjustable and/or driftable sights are meant to accommodate the shooter. An acceptable zero has nothing to do with the physical position of the sights on the slide anymore than an internally centered reticle will render you a zero with a scope.

    Anybody have a clue where this nonsense originated?

    (All the relevant conversation is in the first 30 seconds .....)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUHMhrfz43E
    Last edited by 41magfan; 02-11-2018 at 03:36 PM.
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  2. #2
    Site Supporter Mjolnir's Avatar
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    What part is nonsense? The fact that one assumes and expects the sights SHOULD be centered or close to it. Or Glock's seemingly random rear sight placement?

    I notice hitting Left with the 19 more so than with the 17. The larger/more full the grip (and if when applying pressure with my dominant hand the fill of the stock presses the center of my dominant (RH) hand the muzzle will move to the left.

    I experienced this first hand shooting my CZ P-09 and hand a "Voila!" moment. So large grip panels replaced with medium and re-focusing on my grip technique. There is the occasional "lefty" but it's much, much better now.


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  3. #3
    Site Supporter PNWTO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 41magfan View Post

    Anybody have a clue where this nonsense originated?
    Like most things, probably in military circles. Many times on ranges you see some variety of "the gun isn't wrong you are" which is true 99% of the time but there are still equipment issues. I also think that most folks can't shoot well enough and/or don't shoot far enough to notice. I've been in situations where I explained shooting at 25-50 yds and the conversation didn't go farther than the retort of "well shooting that far is reckless since no jury will believe you had to shoot that far in a defensive situation."
    "Do nothing which is of no use." -Musashi

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    Nonsense? Since Glocks aren't engineered to purposely shoot anything other than straight, if the sights are mechanically aligned and the shots are going somewhere other than straight, it's the shooter. Sure, you can correct for that by crooking the rear sight, but at what distance? Cheat the sight for a bad grip / trigger press / flinch, etc at 10 yards and you'll still be off at shorter or longer distances. My preference would be to figure out what I need to fix before moving sights to compensate for my bad mechanics.

  5. #5
    Site Supporter 41magfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry T View Post
    Nonsense? Since Glocks aren't engineered to purposely shoot anything other than straight, if the sights are mechanically aligned and the shots are going somewhere other than straight, it's the shooter. Sure, you can correct for that by crooking the rear sight, but at what distance? Cheat the sight for a bad grip / trigger press / flinch, etc at 10 yards and you'll still be off at shorter or longer distances. My preference would be to figure out what I need to fix before moving sights to compensate for my bad mechanics.
    That sounds great in theory, but how do you rectify a lack of zero using that logic when the gun has integral sights?

    More times than not, the front sight is set on the center line of the barrel and rear sight notch is machined in the middle of the frame but the gun doesn't shoot to the sights. What I've just described there is a disproportionate number of fixed sight revolvers and it has nothing to do with how you're holding it or pulling the trigger.

    If I can shoot one-hole groups that are 2" left of my aiming point at 7 yards, am I to understand that I'm doing something "wrong"?
    Last edited by 41magfan; 02-11-2018 at 04:49 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 41magfan View Post
    If I can shoot one-hole groups that are 2" left of my aiming point at 7 yards, am I to understand that I'm doing something "wrong"?
    Possibly. All it means for sure is that you're consistent. I had the same thing happen when I switched to the large beavertail on a Glock 17. The way I had my strong hand positioned on the backstrap caused a consistent left miss. I had a former Navy Seal shoot my gun to verify it was me and he was grouping center of a 4" circle at 20 yards. It wasn't the gun. It was me. I made a slight change in how my strong hand heel fit the backstrap and things moved back to center. Not necessarily 1" groups, but centered to my POA.

  7. #7
    Site Supporter 41magfan's Avatar
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    Exactly ..... consistent enough to make my sights jive with how I interface with the pistol. If I can shoot one-hole groups, why would I want to change my technique as a supposed "fix" for something I can fix with a sight correction?

    Back to the fixed-sight gun conundrum ..... how does a change in technique fix a lack of zero?
    The path of least resistance will seldom get you where you need to be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 41magfan View Post
    Exactly ..... consistent enough to make my sights jive with how I interface with the pistol. If I can shoot one-hole groups, why would I want to change my technique as a supposed "fix" for something I can fix with a sight correction?

    Back to the fixed-sight gun conundrum ..... how does a change in technique fix a lack of zero?
    By your logic, a shooter with a "low left flinch" should just move his sights to accommodate the flinch rather than working on the flinch. That's ok I guess as long as the shooter consistently flinches the same every time.

    You mentioned 7 yards earlier. What does moving your sights to be centered at 7 yards mean at closer or farther distance? You don't need anyone's permission to fix your "leftness" by drifting your rear sight. Do what you think you need to do.

  9. #9
    Site Supporter 41magfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry T View Post
    By your logic, a shooter with a "low left flinch" should just move his sights to accommodate the flinch rather than working on the flinch. That's ok I guess as long as the shooter consistently flinches the same every time.

    You mentioned 7 yards earlier. What does moving your sights to be centered at 7 yards mean at closer or farther distance? You don't need anyone's permission to fix your "leftness" by drifting your rear sight. Do what you think you need to do.
    First off, I know how to detect incorrect inputs on the gun and a flincher doesn't miss because his "muzzle orientation or sights" are off .... he misses because he screws up the orientation with his trigger pull.

    Secondly, I've never seen a "flincher" do anything consistently ..... it just gets better or worse depending on the demands placed on the shooter and the difficulty of the shot.

    I can make the worlds worst "low left flincher" hit his intended POA by making him compensate for it by aiming "high right" relative to POI ..... it has nothing to do with his sights.

    Lastly, once established, a zero is a zero is a zero for all practical purposes if the shooter knows how to shoot. The only thing that changes is the effect of gravity at distance.
    The path of least resistance will seldom get you where you need to be.

  10. #10
    Site Supporter CCT125US's Avatar
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    We have mechanical zero, and the shooters perception of that zero. Combine those with any number of shooter induced errors, and you get internet diagnostics. I don't believe sights should be drifted to compensate for shooter error. I also don't believe the majority of shooter who say "the sights are off" However, if you can shoot a 2" group 2" left of center at 25 yards and a 4" group 4" left of center at 50 yards, we can then talk about making an adjustment.

    With Glocks, I believe @Gio mentioned the front sight being torqued counter clockwise due to the way they affix to the slide. This moves the face of the front sight ever so slightly to the right, causing the shooter to move the gun off center to the left.

    Shooting tight groups and distance work really magnifies errors. Also having a competent shooter verify, never hurts.
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