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Thread: 38 Special HST 130gr +P in Organic Gel

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR View Post
    Well done!

    Next time, try using 4 layer denim rather than heavy clothing. It is a better engineering test to assess robust expansion.

    Consider working up to 5 shots in BG, 5 shots in 4 LD, and perhaps eventually 5 shots against auto windshield glass--then you will have covered all the bases for assessing a defensive or duty load.
    Thank you. A "well done" from you is greatly appreciated.

    I've wondered about auto glass. It should be a fairly easy job to come up with a holding fixture. The hard part will be a cheap and repeatable source for the glass itself. Maybe Safelite has some scraps they will sell cheap or donate to science.

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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokarev View Post
    Thank you. A "well done" from you is greatly appreciated.

    I've wondered about auto glass. It should be a fairly easy job to come up with a holding fixture. The hard part will be a cheap and repeatable source for the glass itself. Maybe Safelite has some scraps they will sell cheap or donate to science.

    Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
    I'd try a junkyard.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by scjbash View Post
    I'd try a junkyard.
    Yes. That will probably work.

    From what I've read online, the FBI glass test consists of a plate of auto glass that's leaned back at a 45-degree angle off vertical. It is also turned 15-degrees away from the shooter to similar the shape and curve of a vehicle windshield.

    Ideally whatever I can get would be cut into small pieces that are flat enough so as not to corrupt the FBI standard and would be small enough to be easily transported.

  4. #24
    Something else to consider, if and when I test through auto glass, is the order of the testing. If performance through glass is going to be part of the pass/fail standard then I should conduct it first. Failure against glass will save me the time and effort of "wasting" blocks in the easier tests.

  5. #25
    What percentage of shootings involve auto glass as a barrier? I personally would rather have a bullet with better performance in a non-auto glass, then to sacrifice some of that better performance to pass the auto glass test.
    We could isolate Russia totally from the world and maybe they could apply for membership after 2000 years.

  6. #26
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    So, some thoughts on auto glass. First, Tokarev, you can generally get cracked/broken take off windshields for little or nothing from the various auto glass vendors in your area.

    Second, I think it's a bad idea to discount glass performance in daily carry ammo. It's a fact that if you have a load that works well in the 4 LD test and passes the auto glass test, you ALWAYS have a load that works well on the street. So, it's a great testing and performance metric to see if what you're carrying is a dependable load. The next factor is a bit of a "sickener". Since about 2015-2016, all of the side glass in cars is now a windshield type laminate glass! So, your standard carjacker at the side window of your personal ride (window up) scenario is now a threat that your popgun carry load better work on, too. That possibility eliminates all the .380 ammo and I'd think most of the .38 Special expanding ammo, too.
    Last edited by Wayne Dobbs; 02-17-2018 at 10:45 AM.
    Regional Government Sales Manager for Aimpoint, Inc. USA
    Co-owner Hardwired Tactical Shooting (HiTS)

  7. #27
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5pins View Post
    What percentage of shootings involve auto glass as a barrier? I personally would rather have a bullet with better performance in a non-auto glass, then to sacrifice some of that better performance to pass the auto glass test.
    Doc has said in the past that it also correlates to bone strikes. The most common intermediate barrier I see for non-LEOs is forearms. For that reason, I'd also be interested in auto glass performance.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  8. #28
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5pins View Post
    What percentage of shootings involve auto glass as a barrier? I personally would rather have a bullet with better performance in a non-auto glass, then to sacrifice some of that better performance to pass the auto glass test.
    For cops, a fair number. Non-LE won't be shooting into cars, but might have to shoot out of theirs in certain carjacking scenarios.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    For cops, a fair number. Non-LE won't be shooting into cars, but might have to shoot out of theirs in certain carjacking scenarios.
    I would have dismissed glass as a civilian concern a year ago. But what we've been seeing in Europe with vehicles turned into weapons of terror has me rethinking that.

    All things being considered I'd rather carry a bullet that does well through hard barriers than one that doesn't although I also agree with 5 Pins. I'd generally be happy with a bullet that retains most of its mass and penetrates 12-18" but doesn't expand over one that expands but loses that critical measure of penetration.

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    Last edited by Tokarev; 02-17-2018 at 02:06 PM.

  10. #30
    Site Supporter DocGKR's Avatar
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    As usual, Wayne Dobbs and BehindBluel's have made well reasoned comments: Handgun bullets that perform acceptably in testing against 4 layers of denim and laminated automobile glass have typically done well in real world defensive shooting encounters, while projectiles that don't fare well in such testing have tended to demonstrate problems in duty/defensive use...
    Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie

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