FISA Memo

[critter]

I'm of the opinion that a secret court, doing secret shit in secret is highly illegal to begin with. I can't believe more people weren't in pitchfork toting uproar beginning with the Patriot Act. I really don't care as much about the memo as I would the underlying information. All of this "you regular people can't read it; it's classified" is a bunch of bull shit. "Classified" seems to be a vast category with too much potential for being used to cover up wrongdoing. Same with redactions.


Anyone care to speculate in advance on what you think will be uncovered? Personally I doubt anything we don't already suspect.

[JHC]

IF it really gets aired out I predict the FISA warrant will have been properly predicated from multiple sources to conduct a counter-intelligence investigation to see if the Russians may have dangerous influence with Trump or those close to him.

All just what we expect the FBI to do.

The rest is just politicians gaslighting America.

[blues]

FWIW, I will tell you that despite my years of federal service working cases which, (sometimes), included the use of classified material, when the Patriot Act was signed into law I sent a letter to then President Bush (as a private citizen) detailing my concerns regarding the potential pitfalls of the legislation as well as decrying equating something which endangered constitutional freedoms as "patriotic". (Orwell would have loved the new-speak.)

I've had occasion to require a FISA court ruling on a case of mine and I can't even begin to tell you the number and level of hoops involved.
It's a major headache.

Using these tools requires a judicious hand and an ability to walk the tightrope, imho.

[FNFAN]

I think it comes down to whether the FBI/Clinton dossier was used in drafting FISA applications for intercepting information or communication of American citizen AND whether it was known fictitious info at the time of the application(s).

[TGS]

I'm of the opinion that a secret court, doing secret shit in secret is highly illegal to begin with. I can't believe more people weren't in pitchfork toting uproar beginning with the Patriot Act. I really don't care as much about the memo as I would the underlying information. All of this "you regular people can't read it; it's classified" is a bunch of bull shit. "Classified" seems to be a vast category with too much potential for being used to cover up wrongdoing. Same with redactions.

The FISA court was established in 1978, way before the Patriot Act....so I'm not sure what that has to do with it.

There's lots of other classified material that you're not privy to, for good reason. You're also not privy to sealed court documents, either.

None of that means it's bullshit. There's good cause to have a classification system in place to limit the audience of certain information....that doesn't mean just the collected information itself, but also includes the collection methods, organizations, persons, and operations. I'm going to say something that I think is self-evident.......it'd be mighty hard to conduct a intelligence/CI operation without such information subject to classification.

[blues]

I think it comes down to whether the FBI/Clinton dossier was used in drafting FISA applications for intercepting information or communication of American citize AND whether it was known fictitious info at the time of the application(s).

If such turns out to be the case, heads will and should justifiably roll. There is no justification for the swearing of a false oath under the circumstances.

[critter]

FWIW, I will tell you that despite my years of federal service working cases which, (sometimes), included the use of classified material, when the Patriot Act was signed into law I sent a letter to then President Bush (as a private citizen) detailing my concerns regarding the potential pitfalls of the legislation as well as decrying equating something which endangered constitutional freedoms as "patriotic". (Orwell would have loved the new-speak.)

I've had occasion to require a FISA court ruling on a case of mine and I can't even begin to tell you the number and level of hoops involved.
It's a major headache.

Using these tools requires a judicious hand and an ability to walk the tightrope, imho.

Orwellian is an apt description... as are some others, e.g., "Liberty Act".. digressing. That's good to know - that it's not the rubber stamp as sometimes portrayed. Therein lies the problem with secret .. "shut up, citizen peon, we know what we're doing and of course, you don't need to know about it" doesn't really cut it in a free society with accountable government. Concerning the Patriot Act, I did the same... quite adamantly. I never heard back from anyone at any level.

[critter]

The FISA court was established in 1978, way before the Patriot Act....so I'm not sure what that has to do with it.

There's lots of other classified material that you're not privy to, for good reason. You're also not privy to sealed court documents, either.

None of that means it's bullshit. There's good cause to have a classification system in place to limit the audience of certain information....that doesn't mean just the collected information itself, but also includes the collection methods, organizations, persons, and operations. I'm going to say something that I think is self-evident.......it'd be mighty hard to conduct a intelligence/CI operation without such information subject to classification.

Well, I was oblivious in 1978 as most teens are. I lived under assumptions at that time. Hell, I didn't understand how money was created until I was almost 30. I mention the Patriot Act because it is something that was written ahead of time, just lying in wait for the "new Pearl Harbor" as detailed in the Northwoods document (if memory serves edit: memory doesn't serve. Northwoods was the document from the 60's detailing possible false flag attacks.. I'll have to re-search to find the "new Pearl Harbor" reference). That was my "hoooooly hellll" moment where any trust without verification of federal government went out the window and basically the beginning of the government spying on its citizens era with, so we're told, an exponential upswing in FISA warrant applications.

Granted some things are self evident. One of those is -- a government maintaining secrets at its whim, which FOIA requests - hurdles, problems, rejections, conveniently "lost information" - have shown to actually be the case, is dangerous and the explanations given by that government to be utter bull shit. I don't want anyone to die from exposure, or the threaten *real* national security. It's just too big of a blanket in its current form.



Still, we purportedly have government agencies that their very existence is still unknown.

[HCM]

Well, I was oblivious in 1978 as most teens are. I lived under assumptions at that time. Hell, I didn't understand how money was created until I was almost 30. I mention the Patriot Act because it is something that was written ahead of time, just lying in wait for the "new Pearl Harbor" as detailed in the Northwoods document (if memory serves edit: memory doesn't serve. Northwoods was the document from the 60's detailing possible false flag attacks.. I'll have to re-search to find the "new Pearl Harbor" reference). That was my "hoooooly hellll" moment where any trust without verification of federal government went out the window and basically the beginning of the government spying on its citizens era with, so we're told, an exponential upswing in FISA warrant applications.

Granted some things are self evident. One of those is -- a government maintaining secrets at its whim, which FOIA requests - hurdles, problems, rejections, conveniently "lost information" - have shown to actually be the case, is dangerous and the explanations given by that government to be utter bull shit. I don't want anyone to die from exposure, or the threaten *real* national security. It's just too big of a blanket in its current form.



Still, we purportedly have government agencies that their very existence is still unknown.

Critter,

You are posting about something you admit you are not knowledgeable about.

Before you go further down this road here are some open source resources with facts about what FISA is, is not, where it came from and why it exists:

I recommend you start here - It's a paper by the FLETC legal division which gives the best plain language explanation I have seen of the Why / What / How of FISA.

https://www.fletc.gov/sites/default/...illanceAct.pdf

Further info on FISA:

https://it.ojp.gov/PrivacyLiberty/au.../statutes/1286

https://fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fisa/

Here is some good background material on Government secrecy:

https://fas.org/issues/government-secrecy/

[blues]

Before you go further down this road here are some open source resources with facts about what FISA is, is not, where it came from and why it exists:

I recommend you start here - It's a paper by the FLETC legal division which gives the best plain language explanation I have seen of the Why / What / How of FISA.

https://www.fletc.gov/sites/default/...illanceAct.pdf

The author of your first link, Jim McAdams is someone I had occasion to work with back in the Southern District of FL. In fact, as I recall, he assisted in our FISA matter back in the middle to late 90's.