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Thread: Missed it by that much... is it you or the gun. POA-POI.

  1. #1

    Missed it by that much... is it you or the gun. POA-POI.

    So I've seen a reoccurring problem in the handgun shooting world here as of late and it kinda surprises me.
    had a conversation with a well known shooter trainer about how they had been struggling with shooting "right" lately. The problem went away when they moved to a new gun... only to find that the old one had sights that were not aliened right and that it just shot to the right due to the sights. Then wile teaching and AIWB skills and Essential handgun skills class in Houston TX this year I was shooting my new Centurion Tactical from Wilson and found the gun shoots about 2'' left at 10 yards, I also had a student using the Excellent Langdon Tactical PX4 compact carry he was killing it the first day and then on the second day he was consistently shooting high. I thought he had been raising the front sight out of the rear sight notch and that was what was causing it, he asked me to shoot the gun again as I had shot it the day before and sure enough It was shooting high... the student had switched ammo that day and had never shot it in the gun before.

    So where am I going with this you ask... well made sure the ammo you are shooting does in Fact shoot point of aim point of impact in your gun.!!! The questing is asked all the time.. what ammo should I carry in my gun, well good self-defense ammo of course... and here it comes... the But. make sure that it shoots point of aim point of impact and that if groups good out of your gun. point in case is my 92's vs my PX4CC, the 92's LOVE the 124gr HST wile the PX4CC loves the 124 gold dot. yes it would be nice if they both shot the same ammo the fact is they don't and I'm okay with that.

    So check you point of aim and point of impact of the ammo you plan to carry and train with. If you are not sure have someone else shoot the gun that you know is a good shooter or shoot it from a bench/rest to help you be more accurate. Also check your sights to make sure they are aliened... yes sometimes it is bad trigger control that causes you to consistently shoot off target... but it can also be the sights just like on my Cen Tac. so get out there and check you guns and ammo guys!!
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  2. #2
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    Been fighting this for a long time. I was taught that it's not the sights it's you from the beginning of my training journey. And I now know that's not the case but I still fight adjusting sights. Especially Glocks.

    If I can shoot a 10 round, 4" centered group at 25 yards with my rear sight drifted a little right then it's probably the sights.

    Obviously, most shooters aren't checking much less capable of 25 yard accuracy but I would sure love the guns to come with a 25yd test target and what ammo they used to achieve it. Sights should be better regulated from the factory.

  3. #3
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    Here's a target I shot a while ago showing different POI for different ammo.

  4. #4
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    Missed it by that much... is it you or the gun. POA-POI.

    Zeroing your pistol is most definitely a thing. I wish more people understood that and actually did it. Sadly unregulated pistol sights from the factory using random 115gr garbage ammo at 7 yards is about what most people do at the range.

    I used to have a problem shooting left very consistently. Then I discovered that my grip index was off. I was shooting less left, but still left. Then I discovered that nudging that rear sight ever so slightly to the right put me right on point. So in my case it was both, but its still great to know the capabilities of yourself and your equipment.

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    Last edited by spinmove_; 01-25-2018 at 03:10 PM.

  5. #5
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    I'm OCD about the POI/POA relationship on all of my pistols.

    My service/carry pistols are all sighted in perfectly for a 50% above/50% below the top of the front sight blade at 25 yds with our duty ammo (Speer G2).

    My USPSA pistols are sighted in the same way with my 145gr minor PF loads in production or 180gr major PF .40 loads in limited. When I tried some 135gr bullets from the same mfg, it shifted the POI 5" over the 145gr at the same power factor.

    If I don't call several shots left/right but I'm seeing the impact there, the first thing I'll check is the tightness of the front sight (if it's twisted it will negatively affect windage) followed by whether or not the rear is still centered.
    Last edited by Gio; 01-25-2018 at 03:10 PM.

  6. #6
    Site Supporter CCT125US's Avatar
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    I think another over looked factor is variations in POI while shooting indoors vs out. As discussed elsewhere, the sun tends to pull groups.
    Taking a break from social media.

  7. #7
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    This is one argument to be made for more robust adjustable sights.

    While, I'd love my guns to shoot identically regardless of ammo - they don't. And sometimes, I cannot get the ammo I want to shoot. Being able to adjust the sights to zero a gun to a new/different shooting load is ideal. Afterall, it's precisely what we do with optics and adjustable rifle sights. Why do we accept "good 'nuff" for handguns?

    The only reasonable argument I can see being made for "good 'nuff" is that robust, duty-grade, adjustable sights are not common. The best set I'm aware of, that are widely available, are the Novak's and those are actually relatively new (out less than 5-years) - are there other robust adjustable sights out there?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolverRob View Post
    This is one argument to be made for more robust adjustable sights.

    While, I'd love my guns to shoot identically regardless of ammo - they don't. And sometimes, I cannot get the ammo I want to shoot. Being able to adjust the sights to zero a gun to a new/different shooting load is ideal. Afterall, it's precisely what we do with optics and adjustable rifle sights. Why do we accept "good 'nuff" for handguns?

    The only reasonable argument I can see being made for "good 'nuff" is that robust, duty-grade, adjustable sights are not common. The best set I'm aware of, that are widely available, are the Novak's and those are actually relatively new (out less than 5-years) - are there other robust adjustable sights out there?
    I’ve been told more than a couple times that LPA and Dawson adjustable sights are generally robust. I’ve got a set of the Dawson Adjustable sights on my G17.2, so we’ll see how well they hold up.


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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by rjohnson4405 View Post
    Sights should be better regulated from the factory.
    What pistols are you shooting with oem sights?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by HopetonBrown View Post
    What pistols are you shooting with oem sights?
    My Sig 225A1 had decent factory steel tritium sights. As did my HK45C but both needed small adjustments for me. I waited until I shot them for thousands of rounds before moving them.

    My Glock I marked where the factory sights were and put my Heine's there. Not exact but probably should have been close.

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