I am just singing with the choir here but I am a big believer in buckshot OR slug. Not both in the same shell.
Federal flight control 00buck is my preferred social loadout and the same stuff is issued by the agency I am associated with part time.
I am just singing with the choir here but I am a big believer in buckshot OR slug. Not both in the same shell.
Federal flight control 00buck is my preferred social loadout and the same stuff is issued by the agency I am associated with part time.
I go against the grain when it comes to shotgun ammo.
I don't like TAP or Flite-Control. I want my shotgun to have some spread.
The big advantage a shotgun has over a carbine is higher hit probability due to multiple projectiles. The TAP and FC loads pretty much negate that advantage.
I consider the shotgun with buckshot a 0-25 yard gun with a switch over to slugs if I want to stretch it out to 75-100 yards.
With that in mind my preferred load is either the Winchester 9-pellet "Military" #00, or Nobel 27-pellet #4 buckshot.
Both are full power loads that are "minute of man" at 25 yards.
At home my Winchester 1300 is loaded with the #4 buck, when traveling I load up with the #00 or just take a carbine instead.
For slugs I like the Brenneke "Black Magic" 1oz. @ 1560fps.
The primary advantage of buckshot is not a widely spread pattern to help you make up for poor marksmanship. That approach inevitably leads to pellets off target, which create whole new problems. The real advantages of buck at typical defensive engagement distances are:
Multiple, almost simultaneous hits. These help hit more vital structures and make more leaks. One shot with buck is like multiple hits with a handgun. The pellets still need to hit fairly close together in order to all be in the vital zone, not just somewhere on a person. Peripheral hits with buck are no more effective than peripheral hits with pistol bullets.
Compressed downrange danger zone compared to a handgun or carbine. Buckshot will only travel about 900 yards at most. That is roughly half the downrange danger zone of a typical pistol bullet or of a slug.
A few points.Originally Posted by Tom Givens
The added spread enhances hit probability on low percentage shots such as shots under low light on a fast moving target. That's not "making up for poor marksmanship", it's enhancing your hit probability by enlarging your margin of error.
As to missed pellets. Let's take the above scenario of a fast moving target under low light conditions. At 15 yards TAP has a spread of about 4", standard 9 pellet #00 has a spread of approx. 8-10".
With the TAP you're pretty much all pellets on target or all off target, feast or famine rifle like precision. 8 hits on target or 8 misses headed downrange.
With the standard #00 you have a better chance of 2 or 3 stray pellets, but that compares favorably when compared to 8 strays from a complete TAP miss.
I've always thought that if you're going to limit yourself to ultra tight patterns in a shotgun, you might as well use a rifle instead.
Just as good of a fight stopper, easier to manipulate, faster follow up shots, higher capacity, faster reloads, greatly extended range, usually a shorter OAL for better maneuverability, easier to run one-handed, it does pretty much everything better than the shottie once you've limited yourself to TAP like ammo or slugs.
IMO the only reason to use TAP or Flite-Control is if you're LE and are issued a shotgun and only allowed buckshot. Then TAP is your best approximation of a carbine.
I've found that when shooting level, buckshot tends to ground out around 125-150 yards beyond the target so I'm not going to panic over the possibility of a few stray pellets. It sucks and yes every miss has a lawyer attached but the evidence just isn't out there that missed shots from law enforcement and civilian defensive gun use is the bloodbath everyone tries to make it out to be.
Unless you are at an agency that has had an officer killed due to a 00 buckshot pellet that missed the target and went down range approx 60+ yards and killed an officer in a blocking position, then they take those stray buckshot pellets pretty seriously...
The carbine is not equal to a shotgun in close range damage. Many top tier carbine instructors now teach a 5-7 round burst at close quarters to make up for the lackluster effect of 1 ball round on determined targets. It takes longer to fire 5-7 rounds from a carbine than to fire 8-9 pellets of 00 in one shot. If you fire 5-7 rounds from your carbine per target, it effectively holds no more ammo than a 5-6 round shotgun.
I am personally familiar with 3 shootings in this area where 1 stray pellet of 00 per incident killed a bystander, crippled a police officer, and killed a deputy sheriff in three shootings. That's just in this metro area. That's why we are somewhat concerned about large patterns.
An AR with 16" barrel is exactly 3" shorter overall than my 13" LOP, 18" 870. That does not really compromise maneuverability. Certainly, without question, the AR is better suited to the modern battlefield than a shotgun, if for no other reasons than ammo load-out and ability to reach to 200 meters. That does not mean the AR is better for many civil US police or private citizen defensive shootings.
Like I posted, TAP has a greater possibility of all 8 pellets missing.
Shit happens, and one of the four rules is know your target and what's beyond your target.
That's ammo and caliber dependent.
It's also making the assumption that 100% of your shotgun pellets are on target.
I don't like a set round count burst, my plan is if they are still in my sights, they need more trigger presses.
I don't plan on changing anyone's mind about the role of the shotgun.
I'm just laying out the reasons I choose the load I do and what I see the shotgun's advantages to be.
Maybe if we look at this from a little different angle, there won't be as much disagreement.
Let's suppose I offered you two pistols:
- Shoots 4" groups in your hands at 25yd.
- Shoots 12" groups in your hands at 25yd.
Would you choose #2 because it will give you more spread when you fire 4-6 rounds at a threat?
I'm certainly no expert on shotguns. While I've taken a few classes, I wouldn't step up and teach it... that would be ridiculous. But there have been enough instances of inadvertent downrange injuries & deaths -- DocGKR and Tom gave us four already -- that I'd prefer having all my rounds go where I aim them. At that point, it's on me to aim them properly. That seems like a better proposal to me than being fairly certain that no matter what I do, some of my pellets are going somewhere unintended.
You'll get no argument from me that being aware of the downrange area is important. But I'd just rather be the one in control of the little lead balls than leaving it to fate.
Not the same.
Your example has the 4-6 rounds spread out over more than a second.
The shotgun is firing all pellets simultaneously.
What's more effective on a low percentage fast moving target... like a bird... a shotgun or a semi-auto rifle.
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