Originally Posted by Wendell
This is a huuuuuge pet peeve of mine, particularly in classes advertised for beginners.
This is a huuuuuge pet peeve of mine, particularly in classes advertised for beginners.
Last edited by David S.; 01-21-2018 at 09:20 PM.
David S.
THIS.
We live in an area that, overall, is fairly balanced politically even though it may vary sharply at the neighborhood level. A lot of the introductory/beginner classes around here tend to have a fairly diverse group of students, and when instructors start getting political it can be a real turn-off to people.
"Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire." - R. A. Heinlein
I'm with a group of instructors putting on a monthly Basic Handgun class (originally it was an NRA Basic Handgun class -- our class hasn't changed but the NRA class has). We're older guys, most of us retired or close to it. We've all done a fair bit of shooting and training -- multiple classes at Gunsite, classes with a number of instructors like Massad Ayoob or Louis Awerbuck, USPSA or IDPA competition, NRA instructor certifications, and three are POST certified. Our training group is organized as a 501(c)(3) corporation. We're all volunteers, and none of use receive any compensation (except the company buys us dinner after the class where we do a debriefing). Our class fees are set to just cover our expenses and operating costs. We supply everything -- guns, ammunition, eye and ear protection, a book on California gun laws, etc.
Probably 80% to 90% of our students had never touched a real gun before. Our class enrollment runs roughly 30% female. We have students of all ages from early 20s to us more seasoned types. We've had entire families attend together.
Most of our student show varying levels of anxiety at handling real guns. We try to address this by bringing them through the course material in a step-by-step, measured and supportive way. We limit class size to 10 students, and will have at least five or six instructors at each class. The class runs about ten hours, but we try to provide adequate breaks. Periodically we discuss breaking the class up into two days; but since we often have students travel from some distance doing so might be a greater hardship.
In addition to the core lectures, the first of which is on safety, we do a lot of "hands-on" work with the students. The students handle a variety of revolvers and semi-autos under direct supervision, one-on-one, of an instructor. They use dummy rounds to load and unload the guns, dry fire and generally learn how things work and feel, and they get continual safety reinforcement.
These initial hands-on exercises help students get familiar with handling a gun and lay a foundation for safe gun handling habits. For beginners handling guns for the first time is pretty awkward. Guns feel strange in the their hands. Many are surprised by how heavy they are. They have no sense of how much or how little force is needed to operate the various "do-dads." The students begin to realize that although guns can be dangerous they can learn how to handle them safely and that safety is in their hands.
In preparation for live fire we put on a lecture and demonstration about how to actually shoot (grip, stance, sight alignment, trigger press, surprise break, focus on the front sight, and eye dominance). I usually do this one, and I like to use an airsoft gun fitted with a Crimson Trace laser grip to illustrate a controlled trigger press compared with jerking the trigger. We then work one-on-one with students on grip and stance using "blue" inert training guns.
Before going to live fire with .22s, the students shoot airsoft (the quality type) in the classroom so they can get a feel for sight alignment and trigger control (and reset) without the noise and intimidation factor (for beginners) of firing real ammunition.
After the students fire their 25 rounds of .22 (working one-on-one with an instructor), we put out a variety of guns from 9mm to .44 Magnum so the students can get the experience of firing the larger calibers. Shooting the centerfire guns is at each student's option. Most fire them all, but some choose not to.
During the live fire exercises it's not uncommon for a student to shoot 2 to 3 inch groups at seven yards with even the heavy calibers. A few months ago, a petite young woman who had never fired any type of gun before out shot everyone, including her husband, with the .44 Magnum -- putting three rounds into about an inch at 7 yards.
Going through our process most students shed a good deal of their initial anxiety. Some remain anxious to a degree but still manage to master their anxiety and perform well. In the last several years only one or two (out of perhaps a couple of hundred) could not complete the class.
Some time ago got an email from a student. She is a very petite Asian woman who is a PhD candidate in statistics at Stanford. She wrote:And that's why we teach beginners.Dear BayProfs,
Just wanted to say I had a great time at the Basic Pistol class this weekend. The class was very thoughtfully organized; it was very helpful to progress from watching the instructors, to doing the hands-on practice, to doing the real deal. I really appreciate how patient you all were in answering our questions and giving us feedback. So thanks a lot! I will try to send some of my friends your way, assuming I can convince them not to be scared of guns....
And the foregoing was a very prolix way to answer Rich's question.
Last edited by Frank Ettin; 01-22-2018 at 04:42 PM. Reason: correct typo
So I just wanted to add some basic information and a link to a model commonly used in DoD for Instructional Systems Design called the ADDIE model.
http://www.instructionaldesign.org/models/addie.html
ADDIE stands for Analysis, Design, Development, Implementation and Evaluation. It’s been around for a while, in one form or another, with some ISD approaches springing off of it (Rapid Prototyping for example.)
Let me (gently) disagree. I was trying to isolate on what could be achieved, not necessarily their motivation.
Perhaps my premise wasn’t stated well enough.
How about this: Given an adult, in the anthropometric range from 5% female to 95% male, North American, under ideal conditions, with no previous experience with center fire handguns, what is an achievable minimum standard of accuracy at 5 yards on an 8” Steel plate or equivalent paper target after one hour of training by a current, competent and qualified instructor?
I ended up at 8/10 on 8” at 15’; and my 1 of 1 student met that goal (5/5 in 6”, but bear with me).
So what would be your minimum, and why?
PS I get folks who say ‘none, just shoot’, but I happen to disagree strongly. I believe hits matter, and were I ever to become an instructor, that ethos would underpin my approach.
Last edited by RJ; 01-23-2018 at 03:32 PM.
Thanks Frank.
It’s interesting, the approach you describe mirrors my take on this almost exactly, less the .22 part.
With what gun, caliber, and load?
The obvious answer is "They run what they brung", and then you have to convince them that they chose... poorly. Without discouraging them.
(I recall a couple who showed up for an NRA Basic Pistol class, she had a 1911, and he had a J Frame .38. He was convinced that she had too much gun, and that his would be much more manageable. I sure hope he wasn't an engineer, because that lesson in applied physics was painful for him...)
As an aside, this is why I oppose laws requiring a qualification in order to own, still less carry, a gun: The Powers That Be could easily set up the qualification course so as to eliminate everybody, or anybody they didn't want to qualify. The favorites get a match .22 using competition ammo, others a .40 S&W with +P+ ammo. If you really want to discourage them, they get .44 magnums or even .500s...
Last edited by Drang; 01-23-2018 at 03:41 PM.
Recovering Gun Store Commando. My Blog: The Clue Meter
“It doesn’t matter what the problem is, the solution is always for us to give the government more money and power, while we eat less meat.”
Glenn Reynolds
A Glock 19?
I mean, nobody still shoots those WWI guns, do they?
On Qualification, I 100% agree on ownership or in your place of business to own a gun.
For CCW, I support something stronger as a requirement. Here in FL, it’s pretty basic; “Demonstrate Competency with a handgun”. Not quite ‘Fog a mirror’, but close.
The State describes it as:
“Florida law requires you to submit proof of competency with a rearm in order to qualify for a concealed weapon license. A copy of a CERTIFICATE OF COMPLETION or similar document from any of the following courses or classes is acceptable:
• any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission or a similar agency in another state;
• any National Ri e Association rearms safety or training course;
• any rearms safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by a law enforcement agency,
junior college, college, or private or public institution or organization or rearms training school, utilizing instructors certi ed by the National Ri e Association, the Criminal Justice Standards and Training Commission, or the Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services;
• any law enforcement rearms safety or training course or class offered for security of cers, investigators, special deputies, or any division or subdivision of law enforcement or security enforcement;
• any rearms training or safety course or class conducted by a state-certi ed instructor or by an instructor certi ed by the National Ri e Association.
The copy of the training certi cate/document must be clear and legible. The certi cate/document must include your name, your instructor’s name, your instructor’s quali cations/credentials (National Ri e Association instructor, law enforcement rearms instructor, Class “K” Firearms Instructor licensed by the State of Florida, etc.), and your instructor’s license/ certi cation number.
Other acceptable forms of training documentation include the following:
• documentary evidence of experience with a rearm obtained through participation in organized shooting competition; • active-duty military personnel may submit copies of any of the following documents that con rm your experience
with a rearm gained during service: military orders including call to active-duty letter; a statement of military service signed by, or at the direction of, the adjutant, personnel of cer, or commander of your unit or higher headquarters which identi es you and provides your date of entry for your current active-duty period;
• former military personnel can submit a DD Form 214 re ecting honorable discharge from military service. PLEASE NOTE: Any National Ri e Association rearms safety or training course, any rearms safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by a law enforcement agency, junior college, college, or private or public institution or organization or rearms training school, utilizing instructors certi ed by the National Ri e Association, the Criminal Justice Standards and Training Commission, the Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services, or any rearms training or safety course or class conducted by a state-certi ed instructor or by an instructor certi ed by the National Ri e Association must include live re using “
What does WA mandate for CCW?
Pay your money and pass a background check.
Been that way since the early 60s. (They say WA was the first "shall issue" state, I don't know.)
Oddly, we still don't have blood flowing in the streets.
Last edited by Drang; 01-23-2018 at 05:48 PM.
Recovering Gun Store Commando. My Blog: The Clue Meter
“It doesn’t matter what the problem is, the solution is always for us to give the government more money and power, while we eat less meat.”
Glenn Reynolds
.........
Last edited by David S.; 01-23-2018 at 06:48 PM.
David S.
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