9mm semi auto range ammo-Winchester 115 white box vs Winchester NATO 124

[Ballistic_RT]

Also, from what has been relayed to me the Winchester NATO really isnt any hotter than their "standard" offering. Unlike European NATO ammo which is noticeably hotter. IIRC the Winchester website shows their standard and NATO having the same FPS?

[Ballistic_RT]

Winchester 124 NATO- 1140fps, Winchester 124 WB- 1130. So your gaining 10fps with their NATO. Compared to the MEN that I try to use that hums along at 1295fps. Speer GD +P is sitting at 1220fps. SO what that relates to for me is that if I can get recoil managed using the 124 MEN, then recoil with a standard pressure GD will (and in my experience is) a pussy cat.

[Hambo]

So your gaining 10fps with their NATO.

The listed velocity if an average, not an exact number, and I would almost guarantee that with either round the standard deviation is more than 10. So the velocity if effectively the same for both. What you get, on average, is a bullet that is 9 grains heavier, which doesn't matter for a practice round.

If it shoots to your sights and it's reliable, use it.

[Ballistic_RT]

The listed velocity if an average, not an exact number, and I would almost guarantee that with either round the standard deviation is more than 10. So the velocity if effectively the same for both. What you get, on average, is a bullet that is 9 grains heavier, which doesn't matter for a practice round.

If it shoots to your sights and it's reliable, use it.

My point exactly. With standard deviations your not gaining anything by trying to get their NATO round vs their standard WWB offering. So if a person actually wanted to train with NATO to make it more similar to their carry ammo, then they would need to go with a hotter NATO offering.

[pblanc]

My point exactly. With standard deviations your not gaining anything by trying to get their NATO round vs their standard WWB offering. So if a person actually wanted to train with NATO to make it more similar to their carry ammo, then they would need to go with a hotter NATO offering.

I disagree. First off, if Winchester is claiming a muzzle velocity of 1130 fps for the 124 grain 9 mm WWB I think they are over stating the case. This is just based on my impression from recoil characteristics. I can't back it up with chronograph results. But on another forum, a poster did chrono both the Winchester 124 grain 9mm Luger load and the WWB 124 grain 9 mm load back to back shooting them from a Glock 17 (4.49" barrel) and got the following results from 6 shot averages: 124 grain NATO: 1137 fps (S.D. 7.8 fps), WWB 124 grain: 1039 fps (S.D. 10.7 fps).

On yet another forum, a member also chronographed the Winchester 124 grain NATO load and got the following results: SIG P226 (4.4" barrel): 1160 fps. SIG P229 (3.9" barrel): 1130 fps. So the muzzle velocity for the NATO load claimed by Winchester of 1140 fps seems very credible. I think that a muzzle velocity of 1040 fps for Winchester white box 124 grain 9 mm Luger is much closer to the mark.

Secondly, it isn't really fair to compare the NATO load to +P JHP ammunition. NATO spec is a maximum case pressure of 36,500 psi. Standard pressure 9 mm Luger case pressure is 35,000 psi and +P Luger is 38,500 psi. So if you compare the NATO load to ammunition loaded to +P SAAMI standards, of course it is going to lose more often than it will win. And many people choose to use standard pressure 9 mm Luger SD ammo rather than +P ammo.

Third, I don't usually take manufacturer's advertised muzzle velocities as gospel. LuckyGunner chronos the loads they do ballistic testing on and their website is a convenient place to compare muzzle velocities and energies using a standard test protocol. To give an example, CCI may claim a muzzle velocity of 1220 fps for the Speer Gold Dot 124 grain +P load, but when LuckyGunner chronographed the same load they got a 5 shot average velocity of 1141 fps which compares very well with the chrono results for the Winchester NATO load that I listed above. In fact, if you compute the average muzzle velocity of the 10 different standard pressure 124 grain 9 mm Luger loads they tested, you get an average muzzle velocity of 1088 fps.

The 9 mm Luger SD loads that I have most often used are Federal 124 grain HST (muzzle velocity 1135 fps), Federal 124 grain HST +P (muzzle velocity 1168 fps), Speer Gold Dot 124 grain P (muzzle velocity 1067 fps), Speer Gold Dot 124 grain +P (muzzle velocity 1141 fps). So a muzzle velocity of 1130-1160fps for Winchester NATO compares very favorably indeed.

[Ballistic_RT]

I disagree. First off, if Winchester is claiming a muzzle velocity of 1130 fps for the 124 grain 9 mm WWB I think they are over stating the case. This is just based on my impression from recoil characteristics. I can't back it up with chronograph results. But on another forum, a poster did chrono both the Winchester 124 grain 9mm Luger load and the WWB 124 grain 9 mm load back to back shooting them from a Glock 17 (4.49" barrel) and got the following results from 6 shot averages: 124 grain NATO: 1137 fps (S.D. 7.8 fps), WWB 124 grain: 1039 fps (S.D. 10.7 fps).

On yet another forum, a member also chronographed the Winchester 124 grain NATO load and got the following results: SIG P226 (4.4" barrel): 1160 fps. SIG P229 (3.9" barrel): 1130 fps. So the muzzle velocity for the NATO load claimed by Winchester of 1140 fps seems very credible. I think that a muzzle velocity of 1040 fps for Winchester white box 124 grain 9 mm Luger is much closer to the mark.

Secondly, it isn't really fair to compare the NATO load to +P JHP ammunition. NATO spec is a maximum case pressure of 36,500 psi. Standard pressure 9 mm Luger case pressure is 35,000 psi and +P Luger is 38,500 psi. So if you compare the NATO load to ammunition loaded to +P SAAMI standards, of course it is going to lose more often than it will win. And many people choose to use standard pressure 9 mm Luger SD ammo rather than +P ammo.

Third, I don't usually take manufacturer's advertised muzzle velocities as gospel. LuckyGunner chronos the loads they do ballistic testing on and their website is a convenient place to compare muzzle velocities and energies using a standard test protocol. To give an example, CCI may claim a muzzle velocity of 1220 fps for the Speer Gold Dot 124 grain +P load, but when LuckyGunner chronographed the same load they got a 5 shot average velocity of 1141 fps which compares very well with the chrono results for the Winchester NATO load that I listed above. In fact, if you compute the average muzzle velocity of the 10 different standard pressure 124 grain 9 mm Luger loads they tested, you get an average muzzle velocity of 1088 fps.

The 9 mm Luger SD loads that I have most often used are Federal 124 grain HST (muzzle velocity 1135 fps), Federal 124 grain HST +P (muzzle velocity 1168 fps), Speer Gold Dot 124 grain P (muzzle velocity 1067 fps), Speer Gold Dot 124 grain +P (muzzle velocity 1141 fps). So a muzzle velocity of 1130-1160fps for Winchester NATO compares very favorably indeed.

Im not saying you will be getting the exact same characteristics between NATO and carry ammo. Im saying you will be getting closer characteristics between them compared to using cheap low power 115gr ammo. Which, to me, is a benefit to using NATO ammo.