LE UOF Video thread

[HCM]

So in this instance could it be appropriate to order the guy to drop it first? I guess it's the jeopardy part I'm trying to see here in this case.

Thanks

The Supreme Court says "If feasible" - that is a judgement call by the officer not a requirement. Action beats reaction, hence weapon in hand equal weapon in use. The use of deadly force is reasonable when a threat is "imminent" There is case law explicitly recognizing this stating that if an officer waits until an assault is in progress it can be too late.

In this case the guy has already fought you why give him a free shot with a baton, which is a deadly weapon, or even pepper spray for that matter?

Get sprayed and now you have a guy on you trying to take your weapon because you can't see.

Baton is a "deadly weapon" under most, if not all state laws. Many LE agencies, mine included specify Baton strikes to certain parts of the body are considered deadly force. If it's potentially deadly force for me then it's potentially deadly force in the hands of an assaultive suspect.

It is not just "a tussle." Remember there is a gun involved in every fight an LEO gets into so every fight is a potentially lethal encounter if they are knocked out or disabled and disarmed.

I strongly urge you to read up on use of force case law starting with the U.S. Supreme Court decision in Graham vs Connor.

[TheNewbie]

Has the part been posted yet? It's a second video from the incident.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/09/23...o-gunfire.html

[octagon]

Another factor considered in objectively reasonable use of force is injury and fatigue. In the one video showing what led up to the shooting showed the officer struggling with the suspect for 40+ seconds. It may not seem like much to some but depending on how long the officer had been working that day,heat and humidity,all the weight and restrictive nature of gear worn etc... the officer may have considered that going for another 40+ second or longer struggle with the suspect would have put him, and thus the public in added danger of disarming or direct injury. It is a factor put forward before in cases of disparity of force or injured officer situations.

[El Cid]

Very scary and difficult situation in that almost coverless brush terrain. Good work.

And a perfect example of why I despise black or dark blue uniforms in rural environments. Hell, even in most urban areas it silhouettes you.

[Nephrology]

And a perfect example of why I despise black or dark blue uniforms in rural environments. Hell, even in most urban areas it silhouettes you.

I feel like a light gray would be a good balance of professional and practical...

[El Cid]

I feel like a light gray would be a good balance of professional and practical...

Grey is great. It just needs to be something neutral. I'm not a fan of camo for LE but there are plenty of good choices. I like the OD jump suits Spokane SO wears.

[KevH]

Sacramento PD OIS from a couple weeks ago where two officers were shot by a murder suspect.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Sacramento PD OIS from a couple weeks ago where two officers were shot by a murder suspect.

"If you shot, tac reload; if you shot, tac reload." at about 5:15.

Single car doors aren't terribly solid cover, ndither is window glass; de-cocking handguns that require it might be a skill people need to reminded off after an event; having ballistic shields available for patrol is a good thing - I had one of ours deployed the other night for a BadGuy with a spear; post-shooting contact plan was developed & verbalized; only concern (and it may have happenewd even though the video did not appear to have shown it) was not securing / searching the suspect, yes, I heard the comment about brain matter however I'd prefer if we worked the post-shooting procedures all the way through every time.

[Nephrology]

I'd prefer if we worked the post-shooting procedures all the way through every time.

Not in LE, but in medicine anything you do that is important and can't be fucked up should be done the same exact way every time.

[KevH]

"If you shot, tac reload; if you shot, tac reload." at about 5:15.

Single car doors aren't terribly solid cover, ndither is window glass; de-cocking handguns that require it might be a skill people need to reminded off after an event; having ballistic shields available for patrol is a good thing - I had one of ours deployed the other night for a BadGuy with a spear; post-shooting contact plan was developed & verbalized; only concern (and it may have happenewd even though the video did not appear to have shown it) was not securing / searching the suspect, yes, I heard the comment about brain matter however I'd prefer if we worked the post-shooting procedures all the way through every time.

Agreed. Car doors, especially modern ones like the Explorers and Taurus, provide you nothing except a false sense of security. Modern cars in general don't provide much cover. Sac PD has now ordered ballistic panels for their doors after this incident, similar to NYPD. Not a great solution, but its more than nothing.

As for cuffing the dead guy, from having spent a decent amount of time investigating OIS's, I have no problem with what they did. If you see brain matter and he's obviously dead (and you know what I'm talking about) just leave him. K9 deployment on a long line and dragging the body from the gun is another method they could have used, but that increases liability in the aftermath. Ultimately, I think they were fine with what they did given the circumstances.

...as for not de-cocking...that's fairly normal. All of these guys involved in this thing were 15 years plus, most of them 20 years plus. It was weekday dayshift. They've had de-cock after firing ingrained in their brains for years and years, but extreme stress (like being hit by a bullet in the stomach) can do things to you. There are agencies that justified switching to DAK on Sigs just for that very reason alone.

I remember years ago after one of our cops ran in front of my dog on a deployment, and ended up wearing him, and I had to yell at him to holster his gun and then very carefully help him guide it back into the holster. Getting flagged repeatedly with a Glock 22 by a guy screaming in pain isn't ideal, but I understand why it happened and wasn't mad at him afterwards. Some things are just stressful and no matter how much you train stuff is just going to happen.