LE UOF Video thread

[octagon]

Tac Reloads have been done in actual incidents, they have been documented in published OIS reviews by district / prosecuting / state attorneys clearing the officers. Respected (?) gun writers, Dean S for one, have documented their use in off-duty shootings by cops. (Never mind the Weaver platform, though I'm not willing where one's support elbow goes.)

I get it, you aren't a fan. I'm more driven on what I teach by someone's own limitations and equipment than I am by a specific technique but that's based on evolution / evaluation. It is also based on having looked at how we got some of this stuff in the past.

Bottom line, that copper did a very freaking solid job handling the contact, the fight, and all of the aftermath. And yet, we're all over here discussing how he got the gun back to full capacity rather than what led him to be able to control the event and the scene as well as he did.

This is why I started my comment with praise for his actions and an attempt to address the tac reload separately as a technique being trained rather than the specific incident and it being used. I do not want to be critical of a single officer or two incident it is just that they appear to be examples of a tac reload or similar being used in actual gunfights/shooting incidents caught on camera to bring the incident to light. I don't know how to be more clear on seeing an example of something and discussing the technique while not being critical of the individuals who used the technique.

That said I have never said that tac reloads were not used in real gunfights and the 2 videos show it or variations of it. I also never said that topping off is a bad idea or cannot be done. My problem with the whole tac reload is that it is being taught in a way that ZERO evidence of ANY police or citizen concealed carry person has EVER performed one and then used the ammo they saved in the magazine retained. NONE,NEVER. Why teach a technique that in these 2 examples presented a compromised grip or delayed return to full capacity and functioning weapon when it takes time,effort and ammo to do and yet is still done or the person runs the risk of doing it improperly with extremely minimal benefit that has NEVER been needed. I just don't understand how to make the point clearer that there may just be a better way to do the same thing, that is topping off a partially loaded weapon after firing shots.

In both the listed incidents on video and any others that have been documented a better technique is the one demonstrated by Jon Corriea in the posted video he calls Proactive reload. It allows for shorter time between partial mag in gun to full mag in gun or at best equal time. The technique gets the support hand back on the gun faster, and it does not require any juggling of magazines or diverted attention to secure partially depleted magazine. For the increasing numbers of smaller stature officers(women and men) and the almost ubiquitous use of double stack guns by police and many citizens, the Tac reload adds complexity and dexterity factors where it isn't needed.

If there is a faster and easier way to accomplish the same task that works for a larger group of users and works more consistently with less change from normal or primary skill(the slide lock reload) why not do it? When is there enough reason and evidence that the time to change is now?

[octagon]

Sorry for the rant above but everytime the topic gets brought up the response is often "if you don't like it don't use it or don't teach it" If everything was about the individual choice then why have any discussion about any topic? It is about objectively sharing information in attempts to gain knowledge and hopefully improve ourselves and others.

We have to always consider a better and strive for continuous improvement on the individual level and the whole society level. Dogma is stagnation.

I used the Weaver stance,speed rock etc as examples of where we were and where we are today as examples of change from what was once cutting edge to accepted best practice and how it changes. Using examples on video or otherwise documented of individuals using the current accepted practice is no slight to the individuals or an attack on them at all. It is an example of where we may change and why.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Argh ... never mind. I'll involk my 5th Am rights and remain silent.

[voodoo_man]

Good evidence of a technique working is people doing it in a real world situation, either naturally or through training.

If someone does something naturally even though they are taught something else, then their that technique is garbage or they have not invested enough time into training it to make it subconscious.

When a technique has been trained into subconsciousness and yet it is still not done in a real world situation that usually means it's not going to work in the real world, especially when the same technique is disregarded for another even after extensive training.

This is as true here, with the tac reload as it is with BJJ and any force related training.

[Dagga Boy]

Argh ... never mind. I'll involk my 5th Am rights and remain silent.

Good plan....thanks for the example on that.

[KevH]

We (the firearms and law enforcement community)used to teach Weaver stance, hip level point shooting and the Speed rock. Over time and upon review of science and actual incident data we don't teach these things anymore. If we have a large number of OIS investigated and/or on camera and not a single incident of the value of tac reload being critical or even remotely a factor in the outcome of the incident it may be time to consider that it isn't something that needs to be taught or taught the same way.

My partner and I were in an OIS in 2014 where we both did a tactical reload out of necessity. In my case, I really didn't know how many rounds I had fired, but the gun felt light in my hand which made me do the reload instinctively. I put the mag in my back pocket without even thinking about it (probably because I had done it in training for the past decade) and lost nothing by doing it.

It is a VERY VALUABLE skill that absolutely must be taught. If you want more details on my incident PM me.

[Soggy]

My partner and I were in an OIS in 2014 where we both did a tactical reload out of necessity. In my case, I really didn't know how many rounds I had fired, but the gun felt light in my hand which made me do the reload instinctively. I put the mag in my back pocket without even thinking about it (probably because I had done it in training for the past decade) and lost nothing by doing it.

It is a VERY VALUABLE skill that absolutely must be taught. If you want more details on my incident PM me.

Would you mind sharing one more bit of info please?: Did either of you need to use one of the retained magazines later in the incident?

Mods: Should further discussion of this topic go into its own thread?

[KevH]

Would you mind sharing one more bit of info please?: Did either of you need to use one of the retained magazines later in the incident?

Mods: Should further discussion of this topic go into its own thread?

I didn't have to fire any from the fresh mag and neither did my partner. I was down to three rounds left in the mag in a Glock 17 and my partner was down to five rounds left in his M&P 40.

There was still another suspect running around though and another gun unaccounted for so the likelihood of needing more rounds was high. Other units in the area were able to grab that person though.

[TGS]

I didn't have to fire any from the fresh mag and neither did my partner. I was down to three rounds left in the mag in a Glock 17 and my partner was down to five rounds left in his M&P 40.

There was still another suspect running around though and another gun unaccounted for so the likelihood of needing more rounds was high. Other units in the area were able to grab that person though.

Which, I think is his point: there's still no evidence that a tac reload was ever actually needed in domestic LE.

Conversely, do we have any evidence of a tac reload actively contributing to an officers demise when they could've had both hands on the gun, or is that also a theoretical danger?

[KevH]

Soooooooooo.......let me get this straight.

You're advocating shoot to slide lock when you don't have to and then be forced under stress to perform a mag change with an empty gun during a firefight?

Because there have been no dead cops found with empty guns trying to reload right? Like Newhall, Miami, etc.?

Topping off your gun when you have the chance is just common sense and if you practice it then it will become second nature.

If Suspect #2 had popped out during my last incident I would rather have had 18 rounds in my gun than 4 and be forced to reload from slide-lock while getting shot at.

I'm just one guy that is willing to share on a forum that I did a tac reload and the guy next to me did the same. No evidence? There are hundreds of OIS's every year and most cops and agencies aren't willing to share publicly what happened. In fact, gathering OIS data is very difficult and time consuming. I would almost guarantee that there have been tac reloads in "domestic law enforcement" where someone has been saved and there is nothing lost by teaching the technique.