LE UOF Video thread

[Dagga Boy]

Heck of a job.

I wholly agree. One training point that I have been discussing for a long time is not putting magazines back in pouches. Guy does a perfectly timed and executed Tac Reload, and then spends a ton of time and effort trying to return that magazine to a pouch. Getting a precision fit item into a precision fit hole without looking is very difficult under post shooting conditions as this illustrates. On the Military side there is a place for resetting gear. On the LE side, just shove it in a pocket.

[voodoo_man]

I wholly agree. One training point that I have been discussing for a long time is not putting magazines back in pouches. Guy does a perfectly timed and executed Tac Reload, and then spends a ton of time and effort trying to return that magazine to a pouch. Getting a precision fit item into a precision fit hole without looking is very difficult under post shooting conditions as this illustrates. On the Military side there is a place for resetting gear. On the LE side, just shove it in a pocket.

Shove it in the belt aiwb. Did that on a few occasions then started running open top pouches, instantly fixed lots of issues

[octagon]

I'm not being critical of the officer involved here and he did a fine job with the tac reload(smooth and efficient at getting the magazines swapped and having the shortest amount of time between partial mag and full mag in gun) However this just seems like another reason that the tac reload is not the best choice for LE. I have been looking for years and asked repeatedly for any documented case of a LEO doing a tac reload and then needing or using the partially spent magazine once all other ammo was depleted. Never found a single incident.

In this particular case it was done about as well as possible yet still there was no need for any more ammo and it caused the officer to have his support hand occupied and a compromised grip on the weapon while being slower than a speed reload would have been. The partial magazine could also be picked up afterwards or at a better moment in the incident.

[Nephrology]

Not a video but radio transmission - NYPD 81st only reason I wanted to post this is to show what a sergeant with not just experience sounds like over the radio but someone who wants stuff done asap and it better be done

Listen specifically when the "Gang Sergeant" call sign is keyed up and what he says - this is also a good example of what a crazy scene sounds like unfolding on the LE dispatch side.

You can hear em blocking off a route to King's County Hospital (KCH). Spent a day there. Incredible trauma center.

[Dagga Boy]

I'm not being critical of the officer involved here and he did a fine job with the tac reload(smooth and efficient at getting the magazines swapped and having the shortest amount of time between partial mag and full mag in gun) However this just seems like another reason that the tac reload is not the best choice for LE. I have been looking for years and asked repeatedly for any documented case of a LEO doing a tac reload and then needing or using the partially spent magazine once all other ammo was depleted. Never found a single incident.

In this particular case it was done about as well as possible yet still there was no need for any more ammo and it caused the officer to have his support hand occupied and a compromised grip on the weapon while being slower than a speed reload would have been. The partial magazine could also be picked up afterwards or at a better moment in the incident.

He was still dealing with a house full of potential hostile folks and this could have easily erupted into a more protracted thing. He did the right thing of going back to full capacity and would have been great if he just shoved the mag ina pocket or between his belt. Would have had more ammo available if needed, no delay or compromised grip, and had control of the magazine/evidence rather than it laying on the ground. Once it is on the deck, it is essentially gone or possibly damaged in my mind.
The key to a Tac reload is that when you are working with a pistol, you are already behind he curve in a gunfight. Maintaining as much ammunition and the magazines is not something I ever consider a negative. This also falls into the one thing that is often the problem with semi auto pistol functioning is magazine issues.....so getting rid of ones we know works doesn't seem to be a negative. Obviously in this case, an in battery speed reload would have been fine.....or a Tac reload with retention to the pocket. The only issue I had was trying to do a task that many are teaching and is difficult to perform when we see the conditions in this video where it is likely going to be used, and it doesn't work well.

[octagon]

He was still dealing with a house full of potential hostile folks and this could have easily erupted into a more protracted thing. He did the right thing of going back to full capacity and would have been great if he just shoved the mag ina pocket or between his belt. Would have had more ammo available if needed, no delay or compromised grip, and had control of the magazine/evidence rather than it laying on the ground. Once it is on the deck, it is essentially gone or possibly damaged in my mind.
The key to a Tac reload is that when you are working with a pistol, you are already behind he curve in a gunfight. Maintaining as much ammunition and the magazines is not something I ever consider a negative. This also falls into the one thing that is often the problem with semi auto pistol functioning is magazine issues.....so getting rid of ones we know works doesn't seem to be a negative. Obviously in this case, an in battery speed reload would have been fine.....or a Tac reload with retention to the pocket. The only issue I had was trying to do a task that many are teaching and is difficult to perform when we see the conditions in this video where it is likely going to be used, and it doesn't work well.

As I try to always do in comments about a critical incident my comments are directed towards general viewers/reviewers of the incident and future activities of what can be learned/improved upon or changed in training and practice by others and myself NOT a direct criticism of an officers actions if they were legal and worked out without causing harm. My comments weren't directed at the officer other than praise for handling a situation well all around including the magazine swap action and I'm glad it worked out for everyone who it mattered that didn't initiate deadly force.

That said this video shows what can happen with even the best Tac reload which in this specific instance was done quickly and smoothly on the swap but then the officer held onto the magazine for 30+ seconds. He didn't have the use of both hands for that time for proper 2 handed weapon use,opening the car door or other actions that didn't occur but may have. He didn't need to shoot any of the ammo in the partial magazine or his other full magazine for that matter and with body cameras and current forensic practices holding the magazine or considering that as a reason doesn't make sense.

In this incident...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3OQsc_QjQE

The officer does a similar action of topping off the gun after firing shots and having a partially loaded mag in the gun. He doesn't do the task as fast(getting the gun to full capacity) as the other officer's tac reload. The officer above drops the partial mag and then reaches for the full one, then misses inserting the full magazine on his first attempt. However in the second video the officer has two hands on the gun and a full gun much sooner than the previous tac reload and holding onto the magazine for 30+ seconds incident.

Jon Corriea at ASP had some input which I believe is more appropriate here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTG98opPuMs

Regardless of the specific incidents which are just 2 examples of what has happened and what could happen. We know that no one has had to use the ammo in the magazine they saved doing a tac reload,Proactive reload,reload with retention or whatever you call it in law enforcement engagements or citizen concealed carry incidents(I contend the military is different and it has been done there but it is distinct from police and citizen Concealed Carry CC). Thus if it hasn't ever been used, hasn't ever been necessary, can cause a delay in getting back to full use of both hands for 2 handed grip or other separate use of the support hand, or can be slower/bobbled when attempted. I just don't understand the time and effort to teach it,train it, practice it until it can be performed well.

I have zero argument for topping off a gun when some rounds have been fired and the opportunity presents itself to do so and spare ammo is available. My issue is that for Police and citizen CC the tac reload or reload with retention aren't best practices.

[Dagga Boy]

I have had multiple cases where numerous shots have been fired, and there is then a whole new force issue or activity later that is much better handled with a fully loaded pistol. Post initial shooting issue if you want to holster a gun or use that pistol to contain a still volatile scene with an unknown number of rounds on board and think teaching that as best practice because we don't have a significant enough case to teach it as a best practice, then by all means, don't teach it. Equally, if we think discarding a critical component to the function of that pistol that may also contain usable ammunition that also figures into an evidentiary picture is a good idea when it may not be neccesary, then teach that.
Personally, I teach two reloads. In battery speed reload and an in battery re load with the magazine retained. I teach when to use both. That is it, and I think it covers a lot of ground with two techniques that are fairly similar in approach and how they are started. The only difference is a decision at the gun.
Running a gun to slide lock is treated as a shooter induced malfunction. A very negative action that requires immediate fixing.

[octagon]

I have had multiple cases where numerous shots have been fired, and there is then a whole new force issue or activity later that is much better handled with a fully loaded pistol. Post initial shooting issue if you want to holster a gun or use that pistol to contain a still volatile scene with an unknown number of rounds on board and think teaching that as best practice because we don't have a significant enough case to teach it as a best practice, then by all means, don't teach it.

The two issues above(in fight or after fight topping off) are basically the same and I and no one I know of is arguing that it is a bad idea,shouldn't be done or can't be done. As far as I am aware no one is saying wait for slide lock or don't top off ammo capacity if a full magazine is available and time and situation allow for a full magazine. If someone is they can say so but that is not me. The issue is how,when and why it is accomplished and taught,trained for and practiced. There seems to be plenty of instructors around and plenty in academies teaching officers the basic Tac reload taught for years. The two OIS(Officer Involved Shooting) videos would be some examples of how it isn't performed well in either case at least how it is suggested to be done. How much time is spent in the academy or at an agency training and practicing the Tac reload that could be better spent on draw,hits and slide lock reloads that we see in every shooting or for reloads plenty of slide lock reloads. Is the teaching,practice and ammo spent on tac reloads taking away from more basic skills to the point of misses or poorer hits, slower/fumbled slide lock reloads?

Equally, if we think discarding a critical component to the function of that pistol that may also contain usable ammunition that also figures into an evidentiary picture is a good idea when it may not be neccesary, then teach that.
Personally, I teach two reloads. In battery speed reload and an in battery re load with the magazine retained. I teach when to use both. That is it, and I think it covers a lot of ground with two techniques that are fairly similar in approach and how they are started. The only difference is a decision at the gun.
Running a gun to slide lock is treated as a shooter induced malfunction. A very negative action that requires immediate fixing.

If you teach 2 different slide forward reloads(both with round in chamber if I understand them correctly) and yet there is a large number of shooting incidents (Police and citizen) where the gun is fired until slide lock where is the disconnect? Are the people involved being taught wrong, not practicing enough to do what their instructors taught them or is the technique not conducive to working under the conditions it is employed or expected to be employed?

We (the firearms and law enforcement community)used to teach Weaver stance, hip level point shooting and the Speed rock. Over time and upon review of science and actual incident data we don't teach these things anymore. If we have a large number of OIS investigated and/or on camera and not a single incident of the value of tac reload being critical or even remotely a factor in the outcome of the incident it may be time to consider that it isn't something that needs to be taught or taught the same way.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Tac Reloads have been done in actual incidents, they have been documented in published OIS reviews by district / prosecuting / state attorneys clearing the officers. Respected (?) gun writers, Dean S for one, have documented their use in off-duty shootings by cops. (Never mind the Weaver platform, though I'm not willing where one's support elbow goes.)

I get it, you aren't a fan. I'm more driven on what I teach by someone's own limitations and equipment than I am by a specific technique but that's based on evolution / evaluation. It is also based on having looked at how we got some of this stuff in the past.

Bottom line, that copper did a very freaking solid job handling the contact, the fight, and all of the aftermath. And yet, we're all over here discussing how he got the gun back to full capacity rather than what led him to be able to control the event and the scene as well as he did.

[Dagga Boy]

My only real critique and comment on this was what I have always done in OIS reviews at my place...training value. My take away on this was "not trying to put magazines back in pouches, and this is a good example of why". Had either type of in battery reload been done, it would not have been much of an issue. The guy executed a stupendous Tac Reload and dispelled any idea of it being too complex for him to perform, yet could not get the magazine in the pouch. To me that is good learning stuff.

As far as out of battery loads. Again, not that we don't teach it. We teach that it is a bad thing to get to that point, that it is something that needs to be fixed as it is a crisis, and we want the mindset that it is something we don't want to happen as opposed to many who teach it as an inevitable.