Don't see anything wrong with that. He had what looks like a gun and wasn't following orders... pointed gun at cops...Originally Posted by octagon
All that over a truancy stop. WTF?? What else was the guy involved with?
Don't see anything wrong with that. He had what looks like a gun and wasn't following orders... pointed gun at cops...
All that over a truancy stop. WTF?? What else was the guy involved with?
As LockedBreech mentions it is extremely odd to a layman such as myself that they all reflexively drew tasers to the sound of incoming gunshots, and then proceeded to dual wield them. I wonder if it has something to do with that random fact I've heard in passing of people subconsciously not dropping useless things in their hands when needing to shoot.
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I didn't watch the video repeatedly and in slow motion but from what I saw it looks as though the officers may have drew their tasers in response to his delay in cooperating and getting out prior to, even if just a second or two to any shots being fired. This would be an appropriate response to non deadly force and possibly active resisting. If this is the case I don't have any issue with the action and don't see how anyone else in their dept or legal review would either.
If they drew their tasers after the gun shots then that is a different issue but may be as simple as they planned to deploy them and quickly had to switch gears to adjust to the new circumstances of gunfire. This seems to be the case of the one officer who is moving away with taser in his hand before switching to his handgun.
It is not uncommon as shown by Active Self Protection videos over and over to not drop an item already in hand when using a handgun. No it isn't the best thing to do but it is common enough.
My comment and point of mentioning the TASER is that by the audio it sounds like the subject had been hit by the TASER darts as his voice has a staccato rhythm to it as if he had been hit and his delay in fleeing from the car.
Obviously it isn't good to deploy a TASER against a lethal threat unless circumstances are much more controlled and officers protected and in superior position nothing like this incident. But we weren't there at the time with the circumstances known to us after the fact so I don't judge and am not being critical just observing and attempting to learn what went well and what may have been done better. Remember they are likely thinking this is a truancy issue which is unlikely to result in gunfire like it did so that must be considered in the decision making process.
That dog is badass.
It looked to me like the officers deployed their zappers the moment the contact officer repeated his first statement to him to put his hands on his head.
The moment the contact officer yelled gun, it was on and it was on with whatever was in their hands. This means they had tasers they used tasers.
#1 issue is that you have three officers, two across from the other and if one began firing then maybe an officer would have been shot, blue on blue. Resolution would be training to Lshape and knowing who goes guns and who goes zapper. That would have allowed the best tactical situation.
#2 is no dropping stuff in hands and using a one handed grip when a two hand grip is best. This is a training issue. Part of the qual should be them holding a flashlight, a radio, a taser, whatever, and on the buzzer dropping it and going two hands on gun. Not difficult to install just something department's don't do.
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Could use better training for bite and hold vs. bite and thrash on an immobile suspect.
Last edited by GuanoLoco; 05-31-2017 at 10:42 PM.
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He never released his bite and rebit. He didn't typewriter the suspect. The guy isn't obeying but he's pretty passive and the dog engaged him. He needs no additional training. Every dog I've seen on a bite will do that. They'll do that on a suit.
I'd be very happy with that deployment.
Just a dog chauffeur that used to hold the dumb end of the leash.
I have a small amount of work in Shutzhund but we were always grilled on allowing the shake. Of course my dog, a mastiff breed, (a) is incredibly protective and loves to play rough but is lower drive and didn't 'buy' into the whole Schutzhund protection thing and (b) wants to shake you to pieces when he does bite. Working K9 probably has different goals/requirements.
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I agree with your points VDM as both are valid and fitting for this incident.
The ability to drop an item in hand is more challenging than I think people believe particularly for LEOs. There is the obvious lack of training so many agencies have not just in dropping an item in hand but in firearms training in general. Then there is the conflicting demands LEOs face when they are disciplined for losing or damaging equipment and the often repeated warnings not to let equipment be used against you or to lose equipment you may need. I can remember plenty of times when it was mentioned to keep hold of the loose cuff or keep it staged or it could be used against you as a weapon. Same thing when TASERs were being trained and how it could be used against you even through a vest with demonstration. Then there is the write ups for losing a piece of equipment. We had a guy written up for losing a PBT. Shortly there after we had a DUI suspect flee in a vehicle and the officer stopped to grab the PBT off the roof before pursuing because he thought about the write up.
I believe the issue is also human nature to not drop tools. We know they can be useful so we rarely drop them. It is often reinforced to take care of tools and secure them from dropping or damage. Even the flap style pouches reinforce this idea to secure tools/equipment fro loss or grabbing by a suspect to then be used against us. Dropping a radio means reduced ability to call for help or communicate. Dropping a flashlight means reduced ability to see or relocate a threat or signal responding officers. Dropping a TASER means the suspect of other person may get it and use it against the LEO (in this case more of a factor as the by stander idiot saying the police can't go in the car and other less positive commentary)
I won't say it can't or shouldn't be trained for just that it is a more complex issue than I think it is considered. Just my 2 cents.
I think this might also be a collateral example of the advance of the transition to 9mm over .40. Due to the Taser confusion, several officers engaged with one-handed firing for part of the exchange. My google-fu tells me Grand Rapids PD recently switched to Gen4 G17s. It's conceivable that the reduced recoil impulse of 9mm allowed that one handed fire to be more precise and end the fight.
Last edited by LockedBreech; 06-02-2017 at 09:30 AM.
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