LE UOF Video thread

[WobblyPossum]

That's what all of our K9 officers always said (bolded).

That’s part of where my question comes from. You send the K9 after the armed suspect who is reasonably expected to use deadly force against the K9 the moment he gets bit. Then the officers are shooting the suspect to save the dog. It’s like when an officer stands in front of a suspect’s vehicle and then shoots as the suspect attempts to drive away when the officer realizes “he’s heading right towards me.” Except in this case, the deadly force is used because a K9 is in danger and not a human. There was a similar incident posted a while ago I’m which the suspect had a firearm and started bringing it towards the K9 when he got bit. The officers shot him before he could shoot the K9. I found that one much easier to articulate because the firearm made the suspect immediately dangerous to the officers and here he is bringing it to bear. In this incident, he’s armed with a knife and running away from officers until the handler released the K9 and everyone swarmed in. At that point everyone is in more danger because now the suspect is actively attempting to use his weapon and the officers are barely out of arms reach. This one is a little weird for me which is why I asked for opinions from people more experienced with K9 deployment. I could be totally wrong here.

[Utm]

That’s part of where my question comes from. You send the K9 after the armed suspect who is reasonably expected to use deadly force against the K9 the moment he gets bit. Then the officers are shooting the suspect to save the dog. It’s like when an officer stands in front of a suspect’s vehicle and then shoots as the suspect attempts to drive away when the officer realizes “he’s heading right towards me.” Except in this case, the deadly force is used because a K9 is in danger and not a human. There was a similar incident posted a while ago I’m which the suspect had a firearm and started bringing it towards the K9 when he got bit. The officers shot him before he could shoot the K9. I found that one much easier to articulate because the firearm made the suspect immediately dangerous to the officers and here he is bringing it to bear. In this incident, he’s armed with a knife and running away from officers until the handler released the K9 and everyone swarmed in. At that point everyone is in more danger because now the suspect is actively attempting to use his weapon and the officers are barely out of arms reach. This one is a little weird for me which is why I asked for opinions from people more experienced with K9 deployment. I could be totally wrong here.

But they're deploying the k9 in an attempt to not have to use deadly force, if the suspect begins attacking the k9 then that's on him.

[TC215]

But they're deploying the k9 in an attempt to not have to use deadly force, if the suspect begins attacking the k9 then that's on him.

You don’t use deadly force to protect a dog. As posted after a previous incident by @Coyotesfan97:

Nice deployment good leg bite after knocking him down. The dog saved the SWAT guys from being shot at. The title of the video isn’t right. You don’t shoot suspects for pointing a gun at your dog you shoot him because he’s placing you and your partners in fear of being shot. You have a chance of going to prison for protecting your dog. You’re protecting yourself.

I don’t know of any handler that would send their dog on a suicide mission when other options are available.

I sent the video to the K9 OIC at my previous agency, and he had some problems with it. The SWAT guys should have had more options.

[Coyotesfan97]

You don’t send your dog on suicide missions and you can’t shoot someone to defend your dog. A police dog isn’t an Officer. They are Police Service Dogs. They are highly trained and very expensive. That’s why there are specific laws dealing with assaulting police dogs and horses.

I don’t like this deployment especially with it being SWAT. I always told less lethal Officer(s) on the immediate action team if this guy comes out, we don’t see a weapon, and he’s non-compliant hit him with the less lethal and I’ll send the dog. If he comes out armed start hitting him with the less lethal and if/when he drops the weapon I’ll send the dog. If he’s not dropping the weapon chances are he’s going to get shot so this is a deployment where you have to be heads up before you send the dog.

I would’ve liked to see the 40mm(s) being emptied on the guy along with some LSDDs being thrown. Hopefully he drops it and is taken down with the dog. If you send your dog with the knife in hand he’s getting stabbed. The handler knew it because he’s yelling don’t let him stab my dog. When we send the dog we generally close on the suspect to help the dog and take the suspect into custody. The dog being sent put them in a bad place. The shooter was close to the suspect with a raised knife when the shots were fired.

Police dogs are tools. They are loved tools. We know that when we put them into danger. They go ahead of us to clear because we can replace a dog but we can’t replace a human. You can love a tool but you can’t be afraid to use it when you need to. You just need to use it wisely and not waste it.

[Coyotesfan97]

That’s part of where my question comes from. You send the K9 after the armed suspect who is reasonably expected to use deadly force against the K9 the moment he gets bit. Then the officers are shooting the suspect to save the dog. It’s like when an officer stands in front of a suspect’s vehicle and then shoots as the suspect attempts to drive away when the officer realizes “he’s heading right towards me.” Except in this case, the deadly force is used because a K9 is in danger and not a human. There was a similar incident posted a while ago I’m which the suspect had a firearm and started bringing it towards the K9 when he got bit. The officers shot him before he could shoot the K9. I found that one much easier to articulate because the firearm made the suspect immediately dangerous to the officers and here he is bringing it to bear. In this incident, he’s armed with a knife and running away from officers until the handler released the K9 and everyone swarmed in. At that point everyone is in more danger because now the suspect is actively attempting to use his weapon and the officers are barely out of arms reach. This one is a little weird for me which is why I asked for opinions from people more experienced with K9 deployment. I could be totally wrong here.

That was in Tucson and the suspect was a violent, armed career criminal. The K9 was there to send if he ran. When the dog was sent he didn’t have a visible weapon. The dog caught and bit him. The Officers were in close pursuit when the suspect drew his weapon. Was he going to shot the dog or the Officers who knows? But they’re in clear, immediate danger when a violent armed felon draws a hidden handgun so he got shot. It was a great deployment and part of the plan. I still believe the dog prevented the suspect from shooting at Officers.

[UNM1136]

As much as I hate to say and think it, the dog is a tool, not an officer.

It is a principle in canine training that the dog always wins, so all he/she knows is wins...despite the efforts of west coast lawyers for the last few decades a dog is NOT lethal force in principle. You can set them up for failure in specific exercises, but you cannot let a dog think he is going to lose going into a confrontation with someone. About 20 years ago we learned something similar about Reality Based Training. Give the student wins to build confidence and experience...Giving them losses kills drive and effort.

A dog in a lethal force scenario is NOT the best choice. He/she might buy you time, and may or may not resolve the situation, but it is still a bad choice.

Lethal force should be resolved with lethal force...not hope and wishes and prayers...

On the plus side, people are either afraid of the dog on principle, or are surprised by the puncturing/crushing/cutting wounds a dog produces and you get a psychological stop. My super sweet Mal last week got a little rough during play and left me bruised and bleeding. He didn't win that one.

What do we think about people who think the sound of an AR15 or 870 chambering a round will resolve things? We don't think much of the principle do, we? It MIGHT work, but in a lethal force scenario, we need MOST LIKELY TO WORK.

Dogs might die in service, but they are not sent to die.

pat

[HCM]

https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2023...ios-east-side/


Man armed with AR-15 critically wounded in shootout with SAPD on East Side, police chief says
Man fired nearly 30 rounds at SAPD officers

SAN ANTONIO – A 33-year-old man is in critical condition after San Antonio police officers shot him during a pursuit on the East Side, according to police chief William McManus.

The initial shooting happened near a carwash on Essex and Hackberry streets Tuesday afternoon. McManus said Paul Palafox had a dispute with another man over money and shot the man in the leg when he couldn’t produce what he owed.

Palafox then drove away to a home in the 1300 block of Mesquite, where police pursued him. McManus said the suspect got between two vehicles with open doors and fired 26 rounds with an AR-15 toward the officers.
“He was absolutely ready,” McManus said.


The officers repositioned themselves to a home across the street, and an officer fired one round, hitting Palafox, McManus said.

“Very dangerous situation for the officers,” the chief said.

McManus said it all happened so fast that their only option was to take cover and neutralize the shooter.

Palafox was transported to a hospital in critical condition, and McManus said it appeared the man wouldn’t survive.

No officers or residents were injured during the shootout. Several rounds hit patrol vehicles and an SUV and home across the street multiple times, according to McManus.

SAPD will file charges of attempted capital murder of a police officer, the chief said. Palafox has an extensive criminal history.

The car wash referenced and its vicinity are a known location for gang and drug trafficking activity. The suspect subsequently died.

[CleverNickname]

With that drone shot at 1:40, after the past year I was half-expecting a mortar shell to drop on his head.

[WobblyPossum]

That was in Tucson and the suspect was a violent, armed career criminal. The K9 was there to send if he ran. When the dog was sent he didn’t have a visible weapon. The dog caught and bit him. The Officers were in close pursuit when the suspect drew his weapon. Was he going to shot the dog or the Officers who knows? But they’re in clear, immediate danger when a violent armed felon draws a hidden handgun so he got shot. It was a great deployment and part of the plan. I still believe the dog prevented the suspect from shooting at Officers.

Thanks for the additional info. I never knew the suspect didn’t have a visible weapon until after the dog had already been released. That makes things a lot clearer. I also appreciate your analysis about this Jacksonville incident and not just because it’s tracking along the same lines I was thinking.

[Coyotesfan97]

As much as I hate to say and think it, the dog is a tool, not an officer.

It is a principle in canine training that the dog always wins, so all he/she knows is wins...despite the efforts of west coast lawyers for the last few decades a dog is NOT lethal force in principle. You can set them up for failure in specific exercises, but you cannot let a dog think he is going to lose going into a confrontation with someone. About 20 years ago we learned something similar about Reality Based Training. Give the student wins to build confidence and experience...Giving them losses kills drive and effort.

A dog in a lethal force scenario is NOT the best choice. He/she might buy you time, and may or may not resolve the situation, but it is still a bad choice.

Lethal force should be resolved with lethal force...not hope and wishes and prayers...

On the plus side, people are either afraid of the dog on principle, or are surprised by the puncturing/crushing/cutting wounds a dog produces and you get a psychological stop. My super sweet Mal last week got a little rough during play and left me bruised and bleeding. He didn't win that one.

What do we think about people who think the sound of an AR15 or 870 chambering a round will resolve things? We don't think much of the principle do, we? It MIGHT work, but in a lethal force scenario, we need MOST LIKELY TO WORK.

Dogs might die in service, but they are not sent to die.

pat

We always told new handlers you have to know when it’s a dog call and when it’s a gun call. There are multiple videos that show it’s a bad thing when the dog gets sent and the shooting starts. He’s stuck in no man’s land and usually dies there.

I’ve had patrol supervisors want me to send my dog into a house looking for an armed suspect before they called SWAT. Nope that ain’t happening. Fortunately our policy gave us the ultimate say so on when to deploy our dogs. The only person who could override us was the SWAT commander.

If there’s enough armed people on scene it doesn’t hurt to have the dog there. Sometimes the deterrent of a dog barking gets a surrender.