The dispatcher was also on point and emotionally controlled. I can only imagine the helplessness she felt through that whole call.
The dispatcher was also on point and emotionally controlled. I can only imagine the helplessness she felt through that whole call.
Originally Posted by vcdgrips
It's not a property crime in CA, it's what's called an Estes Robbery; see https://law.justia.com/cases/califor...3d/147/23.html.
Also, cops not in the 9th Circuit and specifically not working in the SF or Oakland Federal Court districts have no idea of the insanity that comes out of black-robed ignatzes regarding police use of force and laws of arrest. With almost 30 years on, I could justify using force on the driver to prevent him from retrieving the keys, but would still probably get sued for using intermediate force on a passive resister and would not have a motion for summary judgment granted in my favor, which would result in trial and the City most likely settling for a couple of hundred grand. I don't think cops from other areas of the country understand how YOU, the officer, are the one who is going to be the accused and taking any action will have negative consequences. The conduct of the judiciary in cases like Erick Gelhaus' incident has a profound chilling effect and has made execrable precedent. This has an effect on street policing, leading to indecision and poor performance by inexperienced officers that result in failures like this. Obviously, the officer involved in this situation should not have fired those rounds, but other than compliance, our ability to respond to these types of in-progress situations is severely constrained.
Obviously, the common-sense, 1990's answer for how the officer should have responded is order the driver to get on the ground, OC spray and then beat with baton until compliance is achieved. Anyone want to ask what DA Nancy O'Malley would think of that? I know John Burris, the local attorney who makes his living off suing police agencies, would LOVE that case.
Realistically, the officer should have just let them drive away. She has video and a license plate #, ID the suspects, get a warrant and have SWAT serve it.
I work in Bizarro World, where the bad guys are good, and the good guys are bad.
Thanks for posting that explanation. Coming from somewhere where the 1990s answer was the correct one, I had no idea what you guys deal with.
"Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA
Beware of my temper, and the dog that I've found...
I can't argue with @paherne in the least.
Last edited by Erick Gelhaus; 09-15-2020 at 01:51 PM.
Yep. Me neither. Folks just don't understand the level of crazy....that the actual official elected and appointed leadership of the criminal justice system in this area is actively opposed to law enforcement.
Wow. So, it sounds like in your jurisdiction, a cop’s job in a situation like this is to “be a good witness”, and let them leave if they want to.
Not a slam on you (seriously), just acknowledging the bizarro world where we can no longer assume that, when a cop shows up to interrupt a crime, the suspects will be apprehended and leave the scene in cuffs.
Going back to the Berkeley tire shooting – who is responsible for that? A lot of people are going to say the officer, but I’ll disagree. It appears her academy and in-service training failed her.
Who, if anyone, gave her a game plan, a road map, for handling non-compliance? Did every de-escalation scenario lead to an arrest without having to use force?
While I think I can understand why she told the suspect to get in the car, even he knew that was a bad idea.
At 22 months on, who taught her what feigned compliance looks like and how to deal with it? What skills did she have to deal with a suspect that puts her at a significant disadvantage based on size? BJJ et al. isn’t always the answer in a multi-suspect event. What tools did she have that she knew (for sure) she could use to stop his efforts at gaining control of the keys and ultimately fleeing?
What allowed that 19 y/o suspect to understand, to know he could pull all of that without consequence? Who taught him? How much influence did the courts, the media, plaintiffs’ lawyers have on his decisions?
People make fun of, smirk at officers for saying “stop resisting!” Ok, now, have you heard the number of suspects who are non-compliant and/or outright resistive saying “I’m complying” and “I’m not resisting.” Think that they aren’t setting the narrative via the video narration?
We saw yet another example of why the currently accepted versions of de-escalation are terrible ideas. You can’t de-escalate someone who isn’t willing to comply. At some point, if you aren’t willing to let them go, you may well have to force someone to comply. The question for a lot of cops is whether or not it is worth it to force that compliance.
Decent, normal humans aren't expected to detain, arrest suspects so some of this doesn't directly impact what you do. The problem is how the public, the media, prosecutors, and the courts may end up viewing your use of defensive force - "why didn't you just keep telling them X?" "why did you force them to do Y?"
Last edited by Erick Gelhaus; 09-15-2020 at 03:51 PM.
This is all so very sad. I don't have the words to adequately convey the frustration I feel on behalf of those of you still out there trying to do your job in a safe and lawful manner.
There's nothing civil about this war.
In fairness, I do not work in Alameda County, where this occurred. I work in one of the best counties in the Bay Area when it comes to a DA with a sense of fairness and duty to uphold the law. Also, my citizens very much want me to enforce the law and do my job. So, where you choose to work directly impacts the actions you take. Berkeley, interestingly enough, is a weird place because all of the limousine liberals that live in the hills want freedom from crime, etc. but have distaste for their own police. Plus, all of the "educated" folks at the University are able to live consequence-free lives largely absent of common sense. You may remember the angry midget, Robert Reich, who is complaining about Elon Musk making billions, but privately protesting Section 8 housing construction in HIS toney and exclusive Berkeley neighborhood. Now, apply that sort of reasoning to policing. The community gets the policing it wants, one way or another.
Last edited by paherne; 09-15-2020 at 03:35 PM.
I debated posting this one— it’s absolutely terrible to watch, but I figured there are things to be learned.
Be advised, the video shows the murder of the sergeant and wounding of the officer.
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