LE UOF Video thread

[HCM]

Respectfully, I disagree with your first sentence. "We" have to stop collectively excusing criminals doing criminal stuff if cops have to intervene. Had the suspect been shot holding a remote control or a cell phone, I'd agree with your opening; however, he grabbed & was raising a gun at uniformed officers ... that should not equal awful. He was beyond being an imminent threat, he was an immediate threat at that point.

@jnc36rcpd - I missed your post initially (lack of caffeine) but I was thinking about the entry vs other options. Having learned from my time working narcotics and applying my time in other assignments, etc I have come to prefer surround & call-out or breech & hold. Knowing nothing more than this was an apartment/apartment building, without their intel & knowledge of the structure I wasn't going to advocate for that. No idea whether or not they could have evacuated enough of the surrounding units surreptitiously to do it without compromising the target & entry element.

He was absolutely an objective threat in the moment and the shooting was both reasonable and necessary. But a completely lawful shooting can still have bad optics. It appears the deceased reacted without full understanding of who he was reacting to so the optics are bad because many people who keep a gun for home protection will empathize and see themselves in the deceased’s shoes even if that is not accurate. I think the optics of going with a no knock warrant in this case may be more negative than the actions of the individual officer who had to shoot Since that is what forced the officer into those circumstances.

I agree with you that it’s not clear if doing a surround and call out or breaching hold would’ve been feasible. In addition to the other factors you mentioned the sub zero temperatures could be a factor as well.

[JF1]

While this is an outside agency warrant and you don't want to burn their investigation, but what independent work up/effort did your agency go through to validate why "No knock" was your only option considering the risks including your planning/options to mitigate those risks and branches. Are your policies and training records consistent with your plan.

Surround and call out is the preferred method so they'll attack the decision making leading to the type of entry used. Kinda like using why an officer decided to enter a Walmart "alone" with a cover unit close by as another example of poor decision making to discredit you. To be clear I don't agree with that assessment but know based on watching the perfect MMQ go on in my old agency and now on full display Ca wide with 835a it has become the norm for now. If you have the luxury of time, you need to make sure your tactics are solid.

[AMC]

While this is an outside agency warrant and you don't want to burn their investigation, but what independent work up/effort did your agency go through to validate why "No knock" was your only option considering the risks including your planning/options to mitigate those risks and branches.

Surround and call out is the preferred method so they'll attack the decision making leading to the type of entry used. Kinda like using why an officer decided to enter a Walmart "alone" with a cover unit close by as another example of poor decision making to discredit you. To be clear I don't agree with that assessment but know based on watching the perfect MMQ go on in my old agency and now on full display Ca wide with 835a it has become the norm for now. If you have the luxury of time, you need to make sure your tactics are solid.

This is what I was getting at in my question to @Erick Gelhaus. AB392 changed the calculus here in California, in that decisions that could lead to administrative sanction or possible civil liability in other states, can subject an officer to criminal prosecution here in California. In my own agency, that has led to hard entries being reserved almost exclusively for crisis/hostage rescue type situations at this point.

[HCM]

While this is an outside agency warrant and you don't want to burn their investigation, but what independent work up/effort did your agency go through to validate why "No knock" was your only option considering the risks including your planning/options to mitigate those risks and branches. Are your policies and training records consistent with your plan.

Surround and call out is the preferred method so they'll attack the decision making leading to the type of entry used. Kinda like using why an officer decided to enter a Walmart "alone" with a cover unit close by as another example of poor decision making to discredit you. To be clear I don't agree with that assessment but know based on watching the perfect MMQ go on in my old agency and now on full display Ca wide with 835a it has become the norm for now. If you have the luxury of time, you need to make sure your tactics are solid.

The residence appeared to be an apartment inside an apartment building (as opposed to townhouse style) So as mentioned a surround and call out or a breaching hold would require surreptitious evacuation of apartments around above and below the target apartment.

In the Minneapolis thread a poster mentioned The apartment building in general and the target apartment in particular was documented as being associated with prior serious criminal activity. Serious enough that several residents of the building had moved out because of the prior activity. Without getting in the weeds if you can evacuate the surrounding apartments without tipping off the target those techniques may not be viable.

[Erick Gelhaus]

LVMPD from 1-10-2022

Just thought I'd bump this ... LVMPD serving a high-risk warrant and encountering a couch surfer, with a gun, who decides to shoot it out with the entry team.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Interested in your take, Erick, and any other California LEOs, about how this incident might shake out in our state under AB392s revisions to 835a PC.....specifically as regards to "Tactical Conduct". I know a lot depends on the individual jurisdiction and their DAs interpretation, but as an overall matter I think the question is heavy on the minds of every cop in this state.

Without a lot more info - what led them to that apartment, what was briefed about the case & suspect(s), what was/is known about the apartment complex, and whether or not the adjacent units could be safely & surreptitiously evacuated - I didn't think I can even begin to discuss it that way.

[jnc36rcpd]

Surround and callout would have depended upon the suspect being rational and the cooperation of building residents, both frail reeds to hang tactical success on. If the bad guy become aware of the police, he may immediately attempt to break containment, take hostages (whether real, imaginary, or himself), or open fire. All of this may happen with residents still in adjacent rooms, stairwells, or hallways. If other residents are sympathetic to the target, they may assault or interfere with containment and entry personnel, requiring more officers and endangering everyone.

One attorney who sues police departments suggested waiting in the lobby of the apartment building pretending to read a newspaper so the police could scoop up the bad guy. While that frequently works for Danny and Baez on "Blue Bloods", it has significant risks and problems in the real world. If the search warrant was for evidence, it may be back in the apartment. If it was for the suspect, he may hunker down in the apartment for an indefinite amount of time. After all, this is a murder suspect, not a narcotics trafficker who has to leave to conduct business. If we take learned counsel's suggestions literally, how many cops reading newspapers would be have pretending to read newspapers in the lobby? For how many days? Do they trade sections of the paper or should we have tomorrow's edition dropped off to them?

SWAT could have announced more times before making entry, but with the suspect directly inside the room, I doubt it would have made a difference. The decedent still would have awakened and likely raised his gun.

I suspect, in circumstances like this, knock and announce might be the least bad option. If he goes barricade or takes hostages, so be it.

[HCM]

Surround and callout would have depended upon the suspect being rational and the cooperation of building residents, both frail reeds to hang tactical success on. If the bad guy become aware of the police, he may immediately attempt to break containment, take hostages (whether real, imaginary, or himself), or open fire. All of this may happen with residents still in adjacent rooms, stairwells, or hallways. If other residents are sympathetic to the target, they may assault or interfere with containment and entry personnel, requiring more officers and endangering everyone.

One attorney who sues police departments suggested waiting in the lobby of the apartment building pretending to read a newspaper so the police could scoop up the bad guy. While that frequently works for Danny and Baez on "Blue Bloods", it has significant risks and problems in the real world. If the search warrant was for evidence, it may be back in the apartment. If it was for the suspect, he may hunker down in the apartment for an indefinite amount of time. After all, this is a murder suspect, not a narcotics trafficker who has to leave to conduct business. If we take learned counsel's suggestions literally, how many cops reading newspapers would be have pretending to read newspapers in the lobby? For how many days? Do they trade sections of the paper or should we have tomorrow's edition dropped off to them?

SWAT could have announced more times before making entry, but with the suspect directly inside the room, I doubt it would have made a difference. The decedent still would have awakened and likely raised his gun.

I suspect, in circumstances like this, knock and announce might be the least bad option. If he goes barricade or takes hostages, so be it.

I called dibs on the comics section.

[El Cid]

This is going to be a nightmare unless this was A. the right guy and B. pretty much Hitler.

Early reports is that this was not the right guy.

Edit: Yes, I know search warrants are not for a person, but the difference between a suspect being killed while executing a search vs some third party being killed during a search is fairly obvious.

Lots of fail here. Even if the deceased was a career criminal... this should have and could have been handled much better in my opinion.

Sadly this is not the first time (and likely won't be the last) that a bunch of LEO's all screaming commands at the same time create conflicting guidance and confusion for a subject. Before an op, one and ONLY one LEO should be designated as the person to give commands. This is not a new lesson, but one we keep having to relearn.

Next, I try not to judge after the fact, but every time a LEO yells "HANDS!!" I roll my eyes and wonder if they were trained to do that, or they have no idea how completely stupid that is to do. The better command is "don't move" because yelling "HANDS!" you are going to cause the subject to rapidly show you his hands. This can result in you or another LEO shooting the subject for a furtive movement. The problem is the furtive movement was caused by the LEO yelling Hands! The other bad outcome is the subject wants to resist and has his hand on a weapon. You have now given him the head start because your brain expects him to pull out his hands. Now if he has a firearm in his hand you are even further behind the curve.

Lastly, we'll never know how deep of a sleep the deceased was in when they made entry, but they say "Police!" and "Search Warrant" a couple times upon entry. Presume that's what startles him awake. Maybe it's the kick to the back of the couch. As he's waking, did anyone notice what he would have heard? They yelled, "Get on the ground!" and "Hands!" and "Show me your fucking hands!" and "Get on the fucking ground!" At the point he's likely able to process anything, he hears that and probably gets a face full of flashlights. I don't know about you, but if I woke to that I'd believe it was a home invasion and not LE.

We can and should do better as a profession.

[Doc_Glock]

Subject with body armor. Looks like a surplus Interceptor OTV.

That was a crazy one. Officers and suspects all wound pretty tight until it just went off!

Clearly officer's spidey sense was tingling and it was not these criminal's first rodeo.