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Thread: LE UOF Video thread

  1. #1511
    Quote Originally Posted by voodoo_man View Post
    wrote an article in reference to that Athens-clark PD video...
    Read your article, no major issues. The following is not a critique of your article, just my thoughts.

    I was taught, and in turn instructed (and required as SOP for incidents when conditions permitted) that knives are lethal force (amazing that that has to be stated out loud), and that pistols are systems designed for no-advance-warning types of incidents. My policy was that that if you reasonably know in advance that you are entering upon a lethal force incident, then your sidearm becomes your backup to something more definitive, either the rifle or shotgun. When a gunfight is potentially in the offing, the pistol does not rise to the top of the options list. Also, due to the distance limitations of the TASER, I preferred and advocated Less-Lethal modalities that possess better stand-off distance. TASER's were reserved for unarmed resistance.

    Regarding verbal engagement: I was wont to tell my men that talk is fine if it works, but a word to the wise is sufficient; if it takes more than that, it probably will not work anyway. If the perpetrator demonstrated disregard for your words early on, stop wasting your time and diminishing your own attention span. Focus upon his actions, and your situation. Give lawful commands, and use reasonable definitive force given the circumstance that is impacting you "right now".

    My wife viewed the video and said: "they are walking backwards...they keep walking backwards faster...he is chasing them" as if something was diametrically opposed in that approach.

    So yeah, there is that also.
    Last edited by Gray01; 07-03-2019 at 10:44 PM.

  2. #1512
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray01 View Post

    Regarding verbal engagement: I was wont to tell my men that talk is fine if it works, but a word to the wise is sufficient; if it takes more than that, it probably will not work anyway. If the perpetrator demonstrated disregard for your words early on, stop wasting your time and diminishing your own attention span. Focus upon his actions, and your situation. Give lawful commands, and use reasonable definitive force given the circumstance that is impacting you "right now".
    Agree with this 100% but we have for many years expressed it as “Ask, Tell, Make” or “ATM.” It’s more concise and usable under stress. The caveat is it is NOT “ask, ask, ask, please, ask, ask, please, ask, ask, Tell, Make”. At that point to have undermined your officer presence and “telling” is a waste of time. It will also make “making” harder than it needs to be.

  3. #1513
    Seminole County, FL:



    Lemma said Rudolph refused commands to turn off his car, and while Blais was “attached to the window,” Rudolph drove about 20 feet, dragging him. Blais was “still engaged” with Rudolph when he stopped the car, and he pulled his gun out while radioing for backup, Lemma told reporters.

    Rudolph then grabbed Blais and held him as he drove the car another roughly 100 yards toward I-4, according to Lemma.

    "Deputy Blais falls off the car, rolls into the median and is witnessed by eye witnesses all around,” Lemma said at the news conference.

    Rudolph’s black Escalade “spun out" and he fled on foot, sparking an hours-long search that involved several nearby agencies, according to Lemma. He was apprehended in another vehicle about 4:30 p.m. by the Sheriff’s Office’s SWAT team.

    During the incident, Blais fired into Rudolph’s car, striking him in the leg, Lemma said. It’s unclear when Blais discharged his gun or how many bullets he fired.

    "I don’t know how many rounds were fired into the car, but it was probably not enough,” Lemma told reporters.

    The Florida Department of Law Enforcement will investigate the shooting, Sheriff’s Office spokesman Bob Kealing said.

    The sheriff said Rudolph, who is a convicted felon, was seen by witnesses throwing a gun in bushes as he fled the scene and had another firearm in his car.
    https://www.policeone.com/officer-sh...-dragging-him/

  4. #1514

  5. #1515
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray01 View Post
    Read your article, no major issues. The following is not a critique of your article, just my thoughts.

    I was taught, and in turn instructed (and required as SOP for incidents when conditions permitted) that knives are lethal force (amazing that that has to be stated out loud), and that pistols are systems designed for no-advance-warning types of incidents. My policy was that that if you reasonably know in advance that you are entering upon a lethal force incident, then your sidearm becomes your backup to something more definitive, either the rifle or shotgun. When a gunfight is potentially in the offing, the pistol does not rise to the top of the options list. Also, due to the distance limitations of the TASER, I preferred and advocated Less-Lethal modalities that possess better stand-off distance. TASER's were reserved for unarmed resistance.

    Regarding verbal engagement: I was wont to tell my men that talk is fine if it works, but a word to the wise is sufficient; if it takes more than that, it probably will not work anyway. If the perpetrator demonstrated disregard for your words early on, stop wasting your time and diminishing your own attention span. Focus upon his actions, and your situation. Give lawful commands, and use reasonable definitive force given the circumstance that is impacting you "right now".

    My wife viewed the video and said: "they are walking backwards...they keep walking backwards faster...he is chasing them" as if something was diametrically opposed in that approach.

    So yeah, there is that also.

    It seems to me that there’s lots of wisdom in these 2.5 paragraphs.

  6. #1516
    Quote Originally Posted by TC215 View Post

    I teach my rookies to not allow persons in vehicles to light up anything, no black and milds, nothing. If you smell something, let backup know asap so they know what they are rolling into.

    Also both hands inside the vehicle holding the ID is a no go.

    Don't know their policy, but as long as the vehicle is in park, he could have tasered him.
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  7. #1517
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    I’m not LEO, so it may not be appropriate for me to post in this thread. Admins, please delete if you think appropriate.
    In my new job, I get to deal with the stuff you guys sweep up off the streets. One of the things that is drilled into us is that we can only use the minimal amount of force necessary to control the subject. That sounds reasonable, right? I mean it’s not like I should be able to use an asp to brain a dude for not being in his rack 1 minute after lights out.
    I found myself in a pod chasing a guy who had physically restrained me as he grabbed a contraband cell phone I’d discovered. He didn’t hurt me. (other than my pride) As soon as he released me and ran to the other side of the cell to hide the phone, I gave chase. I was immediately faced with 23 bodies blocking me.
    At this point, I suppose, I was supposed to be intimidated enough to leave the cell and call for backup. Sorry, I’m not wired that way. I did call for backup, but I didn’t leave the cell. I was determined to keep eyes on the offender and make sure I could recover the contraband once I had help. (Sadly it didn’t work out. We found a charger and the box it came on, but not the phone.)
    I’m 63 years-old, 6’1” and 225 lbs. Not fat, but not muscled up either. The young buck who so easily manhandled me is 1/3 my age, probably the same weight, but at around 5’11” he is in great shape. In a wrestling contest, well … it was no contest.
    Fortunately he was more concerned with retrieving the contraband than hurting me. The thing I have a problem with is that I had to wait, passively, well past the point I could effectively engage the little thug.
    I won’t go into a lot of my background, but I was taught that violence was a thing to be avoided if possible. I’ll apologize, when when I think I’m in the right, if it will avoid conflict. I’ll walk away listening to the jeers of an asshat calling me a coward. I usually don’t have enough respect for the opinion of somebody who thinks that makes me a coward to be bothered by it.
    But once I’m backed into a corner, it will be no holds barred. I’m looking for the opportunity to gouge out an eye, or rip off part of your face. A finger in the mouth (outside of the teeth) can be a wonderful thing. With determination, you can throw half the guy’s face on the ground. It’s amazing how that will break his concentration and determination. Kick in a knee, hyper-flexing it backward. That usually takes at least one combatant out of the fight. Kicking him in the nuts? Take the shot if you get it. But most people, even without training, will protect that area. Use it if you get a chance, but don't count on it.
    I’ve got two pair of handcuffs that I’m pretty sure would serve well as impact weapons in a pinch.
    But I can’t legally do any of that. I have to wait until any tactical advantage is gone before I take action. Hell, I might as well beat myself up.
    I don’t know why I keep this job. I don’t know why you guys keep yours. Well, I guess I do know why I stay. Bills and stuff. I'm seven years form retirement. I’m looking for something else. In the mean time, my respect for you guys on the street has grown exponentially. My job is bad enough, I can’t imagine yours.
    Some night though, I wish you guys would chill out. I’ve done enough squat and cough dress outs for a night. Cut a perp (and me) some slack.
    Last edited by Bigguy; 07-08-2019 at 11:21 AM.

  8. #1518
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigguy View Post
    In my new job, I get to deal with the stuff you guys sweep up off the streets. One of the things that is drilled into us is that we can only use the minimal amount of force necessary to control the subject. That sounds reasonable, right?
    “Minimal amount of force” does not win fights quickly, and is not the legal standard. “Objectively reasonable” force is. See Graham v. Connor.

  9. #1519
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    Quote Originally Posted by TC215 View Post
    “Minimal amount of force” does not win fights quickly, and is not the legal standard. “Objectively reasonable” force is. See Graham v. Connor.
    I'm employed by a private contractor. They are much more worried about what some dude in state government thinks, than about whether or not I come home at night. Court decisions are easily overturned. The company lawyers are constantly calculating cost against stance. I'd be a real moron to think that my safety has any real impact on those calculations. I'm a dumbass for staying, but the overtime money really helps. I'm looking, but so far haven't found anything I can pay the bills with.

  10. #1520
    Quote Originally Posted by TC215 View Post
    “Minimal amount of force” does not win fights quickly, and is not the legal standard. “Objectively reasonable” force is. See Graham v. Connor.
    Indeed.


    Although there was a request to avoid the "political" in another thread on use of force, I think that it is an absolutely inexorable and strongly influencing factor in use-of-force by LEO's.

    ("At this point, you really need to understand the politics surrounding Athens-Clarke County and ACCPD. I am completely serious when I describe Athens-Clarke County as a non-permissive environment. Historically, the ACCPD has punished their officers for winning fights...")

    This paragraph is troubling: "...officers told Rambo to drop his gun at least 15 times during the chase and he refused. At one point, Rambo stopped and officers used a Taser on him. Rambo then leveled his weapon horizontally, firing one shot then officers opened fire,"

    (That this is occurring in that area is a direct result of Californic cross-contamination.)

    I do not know detailed information, so my following is simply general principle: 1. Less-lethal is not the choice against lethal weapons. 2. Waiting for a suspect armed with lethal weaponry to assume a shooting position is ill-advised, and nothing that was ever included in any policy that I ever read or authored, or any training curriculum either attended or taught.

    "Objectively reasonable" and Graham v. Connor were the key criteria, and I would assume being still extant.

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