Sig P365 - Single Stack 9mm w/10+1 and 12+1

[TheNewbie]

@Clark Jackson

If I could only own one firearm it would probably be a Glock 19.

G19s are robust guns with a well deserved durability and functional reputation.

My carry P365 is a dedicated low round count copy that doesn’t get shot or used very much at all.

I like the P365 because it indexes “naturally” with the grip I use for my competition guns so functionally that’s what I like to carry with.

YMMV.

(EDIT: if it wasn’t clear I also have a few very high round count practice P365s from the first 10,000 produced and they’ve been great from a reliability standpoint).

How many rounds do you have through the hi round count 365? How has the durability been?

[Clark Jackson]

I'm trying to understand your perspective with a little bit more specificity.

As a matter of clarification, could you elaborate on which Glock and Sig models were you putting these rounds on to form your opinion? Do you have a round count estimate that you've put through 365s? I'm most interested in P365 series guns here because the thread is specifically about P365
series guns.

Happy to clarify, good question.

The Glock models I've put the most rounds through/witnessed rounds through are G26, G19, G17 (mostly Gen 4, but also Gen3 and Gen5).

The SIG models I've put the most rounds through/witnessed rounds through are the P239 (.40 only), P229 (9mm & .40), and P320 series (9mm only) and to a much lesser degree, the P226 (9mm only) and P220 (.45).

Micro Pistols: Glock 43, Glock 48, P365, and P365XL. I included G48 in this category but it is arguably not a micro pistol.

Estimated round count, that I have personally shot or witnessed shot, through P365 series is conservatively 60k - 70k+ over the past 3 years. I've seen more rounds through the SIG micro pistols than the Glock micro pistols. In hindsight, I should have kept better round counts, but I was more focused on the training aspect than the mechanical reliability.

For the larger pistol models, the 60k - 70k number is conservatively 200k+ (personally shot or witnessed) over the last 3 years.

My experience with the smaller P365 series has not been as positive as my experience with the larger P320 series in terms of shooting performance and maintenance. If I had to recommend a SIG from the P320/P365 series, I would immediately discard the P365 series and push anyone towards the P320 series. To be fair, I would do the same with Glock and push people toward a G26/19/45/17 and away from the G43/48 series. If I had to recommend a micro pistol I would advise them of the maintenance concerns of micro pistols and ask them to carry the micro pistol they shoot best, regardless of brand (if we are talking SIG or Glock).

There were are also some issues within the P365 series and RDS/BUIS co-witnessing, but I have not recently checked if these were resolved - last I checked was around October 2021. Please remember SIG is known to produce different lines of firearms for different market spaces: one for civilian consumers and one for MIL/LE consumers. This may or may not impact manufacturing processes, quality control, and/or reliability. Not something that should be a deal breaker if you shoot a SIG micro pistol far better than a Glock micro pistol, but it is another consideration and further reinforces the need for a robust preventative maintenance program.

ETA: @joshs I am aware of testing that was done for both the P365 and the G43: the P365 out-performed the G43. As @Doc_Glock correctly pointed out, Glock does not have anything on the market relatable to the P365 series. The P365/G43 testing I am referencing occurred about 5 years ago and I do not know if the same results would occur today given the gun industry's penchant for unannounced rolling updates.

[JCN]

How many rounds do you have through the hi round count 365? How has the durability been?

I looked at my spreadsheet and my two oldest serial number P365s are:

SN: 66A0012xx
SN: 66A0081xx

So I was wrong, I also own an FCU that was in the first 1300 produced!
That one currently is loaned to my best friend which is why I was only counting the 8000 SN one before I looked.

That FCU is the one you’ll see me use in most drill videos.
I am not sure how many rounds but I’ve had it a while and shot it a bunch which probably means maybe 20k rounds?

Nothing has broken mechanically and I didn’t replace the RSA until it broke at 15k+ rounds?

That’s the great thing about practice guns. I don’t have to clean or maintain them so I can see what fails.

It’s been great from that standpoint.

Personally, I like the reviews from gun shop rentals because those are some well abused guns. They’ve been pretty complementary of P365 durability.

[Wonder9]

That is all well and good but Glock does not have an equivalent product to the Sig P365 series. Not even close.

The P365XL and 43X MOS are close enough.

ETA: Physical Size

[JCN]

Happy to clarify, good question.

The Glock models I've put the most rounds through/witnessed rounds through are G26, G19, G17 (mostly Gen 4, but also Gen3 and Gen5).

The SIG models I've put the most rounds through/witnessed rounds through are the P239 (.40 only), P229 (9mm & .40), and P320 series (9mm only) and to a much lesser degree, the P226 (9mm only) and P220 (.45).

Micro Pistols: Glock 43, Glock 48, P365, and P365XL. I included G48 in this category but it is arguably not a micro pistol.

Estimated round count, that I have personally shot or witnessed shot, through P365 series is conservatively 60k - 70k+ over the past 3 years. I've seen more rounds through the SIG micro pistols than the Glock micro pistols. In hindsight, I should have kept better round counts, but I was more focused on the training aspect than the mechanical reliability.

For the larger pistol models, the 60k - 70k number is conservatively 200k+ (personally shot or witnessed) over the last 3 years.

My experience with the smaller P365 series has not been as positive as my experience with the larger P320 series in terms of shooting performance and maintenance. If I had to recommend a SIG from the P320/P365 series, I would immediately discard the P365 series and push anyone towards the P320 series. To be fair, I would do the same with Glock and push people toward a G26/19/45/17 and away from the G43/48 series. If I had to recommend a micro pistol I would advise them of the maintenance concerns of micro pistols and ask them to carry the micro pistol they shoot best, regardless of brand (if we are talking SIG or Glock).

Could you clarify a little further what “witnessed” means? Do you work at a gun shop as an RO?

That might be different of a sample population than if you were the department armorer and firearms instructor for a LEO that had 365s as BUGs.

Most of the P365s I see at the range are shot by noobs and any limp wristed technique induced malfunctions aren’t really a criticism of the platform. For sure a micro gun is harder to shoot than a duty gun. But it also carries easier.

[joshs]

ETA: @joshs I am aware of testing that was done for both the P365 and the G43: the P365 out-performed the G43. As @Doc_Glock correctly pointed out, Glock does not have anything on the market relatable to the P365 series. The P365/G43 testing I am referencing occurred about 5 years ago and I do not know if the same results would occur today given the gun industry's penchant for unannounced rolling updates.

I realized that I probably shouldn't have included the 43 in that post. I was thinking about 43x/48 v. 365x/XL.

[KevH]

@Rex G @Chuck Whitlock @Doc_Glock @BillSWPA @RJ @SouthNarc @fatdog @Lex Luthier @tlong17 @lwt16 @D-der @HeavyDuty @JCN

Note: I mentioned everyone in this post because all of you interacted with the above referenced post and I thought you might enjoy reading more of the exchange. I am not attempting to bait anyone into an antagonistic debate - just sharing my thoughts.

GJM, based on what I have seen on the forum you have have a lot of time with various pistols and RDS and you are obviously a good shooter. All said, I appreciate your input and have to respectfully disagree.

I have a different set of experiences and that's okay because the forum is supposed to be about sharing different experiences. I hope you (and others) do not think my opinion is borne out of something as trivial as brand loyalty or aesthetics; I have a significant amount of exposure to both Glock and SIG which has led me to my current conclusions.

My Glock/SIG opinion may change in the future based on new information, but for now the preponderance of information tells me SIG is the lesser of the two. In addition to my personal experiences, which may not be the most extensive but are much more than the average gun owner/shooter, I have seen organizational testing data which indicates Glock and SIG are both serviceable and reliable, but Glock is superior. This is reinforced by what I have observed on many ranges across many shooting environments (formal, informal, and private). Again, something that could change in the future but as of now is what it is.

Now, do I think SIG's will explode in your hand? No, absolutely not. In fact, as I have said in previous posts in different threads, I believe there are only two (possibly three now) choices for serious firearm use; Glock and SIG with the third possibility from Staccato's line, but the jury is still out.

I have run both Glock and SIG extensively (50k+ rounds through both) to include using both in @Mr_White Pistol Shooting Solutions courses (both the Glock and SIG did fine). I carried a SIG for a year+, minimum 5-days a week, and put over 50k rounds through it with a ROMEO1 optic. I've done the same with Glock and an RMR2. After those experiences, would I recommend the SIG/Romeo over the Glock/RMR? Absolutely not. Would I tell someone they're going to die if they use the SIG/Romeo over the Glock/RMR? Absolutely not. Both work, but I saw better reliability and performance from the Glock/RMR combo than the SIG/Romeo combo.

As an aside: my Glock/SIG stance is similar to my position on flashlights/WMLs in that I only recommend Surefire or Streamlight and possibly a third (Cloud Defensive or Modlite) but like Staccato, the jury is still out on the Cloud Defensive/Modlite.

In the end, I would not recommend a SIG to anyone unless that person had to choose a firearm and Glock was an impossibility (e.g. armed professional whose policies forbid the Glock for some reason). Additionally, regardless of manufacturer, I caution everyone about micro pistol maintenance. I would not recommend shooting a micro pistol (G43 series, P365 series, etc.) beyond 2k rounds without returning the weapon (to the manufacturer) for preventative maintenance and checks.

I understand all the above may conflict with your experiences which is okay as I am not attempting to persuade you to choose my experiences over your own. Rather, I am sharing my experiences so others may compare and contrast their experiences with those of someone else and ultimately make the most informed decision possible.

Thanks again for your input on the topic and I look forward to reading more from you.

There is no Glock equivalent of the P365. The G43/G43X/G48 are nowhere near as reliable or shootable as a P365/P365XL.

2000 rounds and back to the manufacturer? Where in the world did you get this idea and number? For one, I don't think either manufacturer would have any desire to do that. Secondly, that is nowhere close to recommended service intervals for either.

As of two weeks ago going through the P365 Armorer's Course, the first recommended part change is at 5000 rounds and it is a very user serviceable item:











I've worked as a LE armorer supporting SIG and Glock pistols since 2003, S&W M&P since 2008, with 1911's and host of other pistols and long-guns thrown in.

I was a SIG Fanboy back in the late 1990's and early 2000's (pre-Cohen era), owning, carrying and working on them.

I was a SIG hater between about 2008 and 2020, having been burned and watching others be burned by them.

I'm happy to say that the latest iterations of the P320 and P365 are excellent pistols in nearly every regard.

The P365 currently has no parallel on the market. The closest thing is probably the Shield Plus, but it is still not quite as good or flexible in design. The slimline Glocks are known to be problematic.

If it were 2006, I would agree that Glock was the superior choice to pretty much everything else out there, except for perhaps H&K.

In 2022, for a service pistol, Glock is just one option with many other good options mixed in. SIG P320, S&W M&P, CZ P10, H&K VP9...all of these are good options.

[KevH]

My experience with the smaller P365 series has not been as positive as my experience with the larger P320 series in terms of shooting performance and maintenance. If I had to recommend a SIG from the P320/P365 series, I would immediately discard the P365 series and push anyone towards the P320 series. To be fair, I would do the same with Glock and push people toward a G26/19/45/17 and away from the G43/48 series. If I had to recommend a micro pistol I would advise them of the maintenance concerns of micro pistols and ask them to carry the micro pistol they shoot best, regardless of brand (if we are talking SIG or Glock).

These guns are designed fit different roles.

The P365 is meant to fill the role previously held by J-frames, Kahr PM9's, and bunch of different 380 ACP guns. I think it does this quite well to a degree.

The P365XL manages to do a lot of things well. I think it's the ultimate IWB CCW piece at this point. It holds 12+1 rounds and has reliable 15 round factory magazines available. I've said it elsewhere here, but once I shot mine I knew that a lot of other pistols I own had just become obsolete.

I was extremely skeptical of the P365 when it came out, especially after the spotty role-out of the P320 and the striker-drag issues with the original P365's. I've let others be the guinea pigs.

I can tell you that the P365 is a great design and I don't hesitate to recommend them as the off-duty and BUG for our officers and for others.

[Lester Polfus]

There is no Glock equivalent of the P365. The G43/G43X/G48 are nowhere near as reliable or shootable as a P365/P365XL.

2000 rounds and back to the manufacturer? Where in the world did you get this idea and number? For one, I don't think either manufacturer would have any desire to do that. Secondly, that is nowhere close to recommended service intervals for either.

As of two weeks ago going through the P365 Armorer's Course, the first recommended part change is at 5000 rounds and it is a very user serviceable item:











I've worked as a LE armorer supporting SIG and Glock pistols since 2003, S&W M&P since 2008, with 1911's and host of other pistols and long-guns thrown in.

I was a SIG Fanboy back in the late 1990's and early 2000's (pre-Cohen era), owning, carrying and working on them.

I was a SIG hater between about 2008 and 2020, having been burned and watching others be burned by them.

I'm happy to say that the latest iterations of the P320 and P365 are excellent pistols in nearly every regard.

The P365 currently has no parallel on the market. The closest thing is probably the Shield Plus, but it is still not quite as good or flexible in design. The slimline Glocks are known to be problematic.

If it were 2006, I would agree that Glock was the superior choice to pretty much everything else out there, except for perhaps H&K.

In 2022, for a service pistol, Glock is just one option with many other good options mixed in. SIG P320, S&W M&P, CZ P10, H&K VP9...all of these are good options.

You have excellent timing. I was logging into P-F to ask "does anybody have any idea what SIGs recommended maintenance schedule looks like for the P365?" and there are you are... Thanks for that.

[Clark Jackson]

There is no Glock equivalent of the P365. The G43/G43X/G48 are nowhere near as reliable or shootable as a P365/P365XL.

2000 rounds and back to the manufacturer? Where in the world did you get this idea and number? For one, I don't think either manufacturer would have any desire to do that. Secondly, that is nowhere close to recommended service intervals for either.

As of two weeks ago going through the P365 Armorer's Course, the first recommended part change is at 5000 rounds and it is a very user serviceable item:

I've worked as a LE armorer supporting SIG and Glock pistols since 2003, S&W M&P since 2008, with 1911's and host of other pistols and long-guns thrown in.

I was a SIG Fanboy back in the late 1990's and early 2000's (pre-Cohen era), owning, carrying and working on them.

I was a SIG hater between about 2008 and 2020, having been burned and watching others be burned by them.

I'm happy to say that the latest iterations of the P320 and P365 are excellent pistols in nearly every regard.

The P365 currently has no parallel on the market. The closest thing is probably the Shield Plus, but it is still not quite as good or flexible in design. The slimline Glocks are known to be problematic.

If it were 2006, I would agree that Glock was the superior choice to pretty much everything else out there, except for perhaps H&K.

In 2022, for a service pistol, Glock is just one option with many other good options mixed in. SIG P320, S&W M&P, CZ P10, H&K VP9...all of these are good options.

My opinions are just those, opinions. My opinions are informed ones, but they are not absolute. I'm here to try and line up what I know with what others know and come out the other side better. Thank you for taking the time to respond with such a detailed post.

Yes, both Glock and SIG recommend RSA change at 5,000 for the micro pistols. I came up with the 2k number because after about 2k rounds (and as few as 1,000) there have been part failures and/or malfunctions. My 2k round recommendation is a bit on the conservative side, but I am not willing to take the manufacturer's 5k word for it when 1) I've seen different and 2) my life may depend on it. Manufacturer recommendations/guidelines are just that, recommendations/guidelines. I prefer to take a more robust preventative maintenance program approach but that does not mean following the manufacturer's recommendation/guideline is wrong. Again, your experience may not match up to mine. I do not see the harm in leaning towards more caution with maintenance especially on micro guns/BUGs.

I concur with your assertion there is nothing like the P365 on the market, which makes comparing it to other pistols less than ideal. However, I do not believe the P365's unique place in the market means it is the obvious choice for concealed carry/BUG. I concur there were problems with the early model slimline Glock micro pistols.

I have no experience (thus no opinions) on the CZ P10 or HK VP9. I respectfully disagree with your opinion that M&P is a good choice for a service weapon. To avoid taking the thread away from the intended topic, please send me a private message if you'd like to talk about why I do not like the M&P as a service weapon.

ETA: In the 1k - 2k round failures the ammunition used was +P. In my armorer courses (I could be wrong) I do not remember any round count recommendations that were broken down into ammo type (standard vs. +P) which I would think makes a difference. If you happen to know the answer please share as I would be interested, thank you.