Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 38

Thread: Shooting at an accountable/assessment speed

  1. #21
    Hillbilly Elitist Malamute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Northern Rockies
    It makes me wonder if some of the "stop capability" may be partly inherent natural reaction ability, and if some may be just recognizing that stopping may be needed or desirable and starting to program your mind to do it. If one tries it completely out of the blue, it may not be easy to stop when you want. After getting it ingrained as part of your shooting mindset, it may improve. Curious if others have actual experience or thoughts about that aspect.

    Edit: was delayed finishing post while DB was posting. Good information.
    Last edited by Malamute; 01-07-2018 at 10:56 PM.

  2. #22
    Member McNamara's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Great topic. While reading preceding posts I was also thinking about backstops in my neighborhood (urban). Most walking gets done along sidewalks in a neighborhood like mine. That creates a very linear arrangement of people. I'm sure most of you already do this, but part of SA when walking around should include awareness of the background and not just who might be a threat. If I am attacked walking along the sidewalk at night, do I really want to launch bullets down the long axis of a sidewalk that usually contains other people, if I can avoid it? Even if I shoot at a speed where I'm confident of 100% hits, I can't predict over-penetration. Part of my assessment would ideally include knowing that there is nobody within the impact zone behind the threat before I press the trigger.

  3. #23
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Central Front Range, CO
    I’m looking forward to more from DB, but in the meantime, here’s my take.

    Shooting at speed of accountability = just slow enough that we can be certain that each shot hits “the grapefruit.” This is completely DB’s idea, and I embrace it.

    Shooting at speed of assessment = able to stop shooting when appropriate. I view it as a continuous loop, asking “does this threat need another hit to neutralize it?”
    If the threat continues with a hostile act, or exhibits intent of a hostile act, keep shooting. (In a military context, could also add “remains capable of a hostile act”).
    If the threat no longer meets the above criteria, stop shooting. Examples of “stop shoot” criteria could be the target going down from incapacitation, dropping a weapon and surrendering, or dropping weapon and fleeing.

  4. #24
    Gray Hobbyist Wondering Beard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    The Coterie Club
    The principle, in my mind, is "make every shot count" and "don't outrun your headlights".

    How to apply the principle is highly situation dependent.
    Last edited by Wondering Beard; 01-08-2018 at 11:30 AM.
    " La rose est sans pourquoi, elle fleurit parce qu’elle fleurit ; Elle n’a souci d’elle-même, ne demande pas si on la voit. » Angelus Silesius
    "There are problems in this universe for which there are no answers." Paul Muad'dib

  5. #25
    Couple quick bits till I have some more time. Assessment speed does not mean slow. It means the speed at which you can assess based on situational need for certain applications. Use of justifiable lethal force within the confines of constitutional and other legal standards within the US is a totally different type of assessment than defense against an animal, or assessment needed to win a shooting sport. It is all assessment and than manifest differently. Then you have additional needs within he reactionary speed. The ability to account and articulate a need for every single shot and the ability to stop are also a huge factor in self defense use and about a nothing in sport shooting. Again, how you apply time. My frustration over the years is trying to apply the assessment standards and needs of shooting sports and range drills to actual force application. Again, to emphasize, this has squat to do with going slow. It has a ton to do with where you apply your training for what end goals with finate amounts of training time. This also gets into equipment application. Equipment can hold you back at some levels of performance.....the key is most are trying to make equipment performance strides far faster than their abilities to manage both the equipment and their problems are able to.

    Analogy. My fifteen year old is learning to drive. The concept of braking is a process she is learning. The issues with her stopping have little to do with equipment. The way she applies braking and how I do are totally different animals. If this was a gun forum solution.....she would get a gigantic set of Brembo brakes and all her problems would be solved. The reality is I could likely benefit from a gigantic set of Brembo's because of where my performance level is and my abilities to push enevelopes much faurther in street level driving problems, and if I was "sport driving" on a track, I would likely almost have to have that level of equipment to be competitive. My kid.....needs to learn to brake and Brembo's are not the magic cure for her.
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

  6. #26
    Site Supporter JodyH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    New Mexico
    Situation dependent.
    At the range/recreational shooting the "speed of accountability" is however fast you can keep all the rounds headed in a safe direction.
    In a defensive shooting context the "speed of accountability" is how fast you can justify every shot.

    If you want to full-auto a beta-mag into a barren mountainside... more power to you.
    Fire two or three extra rounds into someone who's no longer a threat or one round into someone who was never a threat... you shot too fast.
    Last edited by JodyH; 01-08-2018 at 01:47 PM.
    "For a moment he felt good about this. A moment or two later he felt bad about feeling good about it. Then he felt good about feeling bad about feeling good about it and, satisfied, drove on into the night."
    -- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy --

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Dagga Boy View Post
    Evaluation and assessment and the reaction to both and then translating hat back into a lethal force decision is horribly complex, and very situationally and individual dependent. Then you get to toss in experience and perception for a wonderful cocktail of chaos. This is why trying to place mechanical numbers and technical processes to it in the "Mindset and Tactics" realm is difficult. Competition forum thread on what kind of split times certain level shooters are running on some specific drill....have the conversation. As applied to use of force, it is really irrelevant.
    My take, shoot at your assessment speed with a level of accuracy where you can reliably hit acceptable targets.......which is actually the size of a large orange or grapefruit. To do all of that right tends to be far slower in the field than what we try to do on one dimensional non assessed targets on a range.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Dobbs View Post
    You're just ruining this conversation with talk of assessment time and field performance vs gun games, Darryl!

    Operational "split times" of 0.30 - 0.35 seconds are on the ragged edge of human perception and decision making capabilities. If you're shooting faster than that IN AN OPERATIONAL SETTING you are shooting faster than you can perceive, decide and act on the information being furnished by your visual inputs during the event. That means you'll fire shots that miss a falling threat, hit retreating threats in the back, fire shots downrange that endanger no-shoot personnel on scene, etc. You can easily turn a legitimate, clean shooting into an excessive force event with your hyper "split times". Street fights ain't match shooting. We should all remember that.
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    Split times have taken on meaning, in the timmie world, different than many technical shooters intend.

    Technical shooters measure everything -- draw, follow-up shots to the same target, transition to another target, follow-up shots there, reload, etc. This constant measuring is perfectly natural and normal to a technical shooter. When I set up a target array, generally before I shoot it, I figure out what my cumulative time should be, based on the breakdown of each element, and what those shots should take. Then I shoot it, and figure out where and why, my time deviated from my estimate. Time deviations usually reflect some defect in my technique -- perhaps needing to grip the pistol harder, or lead a transition more with my eyes. This is not unique to me. To figure out times on the Rogers School test for example, just count the targets and apply Bill's times for each component. Want to figure out Gabe's test standards -- just use 1.0 for a draw, .20 for a split, and .50 for a head transition.

    These various times are for shooting targets that require no or little evaluation. They do, for most of us, require a high level of accuracy, because the penalties for shooting less than A zone hits are significant, when competing with minor PF, like in PCC, Production, CO and Limited minor. There are also generally no mulligans in competition, and your first run is what you get.

    Now let's consider the food court. There may well be ambiguity, continued evaluation required, and issues like what is behind your target. I reread the Cirillo book yesterday, and what the stakeout unit was doing, could be incredibly complicated, making shoot/no-shoot decisions, amongst store workers and customers. In those situations, most split times were irrelevant, as evaluation does not lend itself to a par time. However, when the evaluation was done, they put a very high premium upon placing accurate shots quickly. That is why their team selection process looked for the best technical shooters.

    I think Gunsite had a saying of more or less, "evaluate carefully, shoot quickly."
    bolded for emphasis.
    Last edited by David S.; 01-09-2018 at 09:41 PM.
    David S.

  8. #28
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Erie County, NY
    Relevant article on speed, stopping:

    http://www.investigativesciencesjour...load/5382/3750

  9. #29
    Member feudist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Murderham, the Tragic City
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    Relevant article on speed, stopping:

    http://www.investigativesciencesjour...load/5382/3750
    Worth the read! Thanks. Why did my "like" show up as an "unlike"?
    Last edited by feudist; 01-10-2018 at 12:56 PM. Reason: Sperling

  10. #30
    Site Supporter Erick Gelhaus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    The Wasatch Front
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    Relevant article on speed, stopping:

    http://www.investigativesciencesjour...load/5382/3750
    Thanks for sharing that, I was going to post it but you beat me to it.

User Tag List

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •