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Thread: Bill Allard on the 45 Auto

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo View Post
    I listened to part of the podcast. If you start at 30:00 Allard talks about their accurate sighted fire, and goes on about seeing his front sight clearly.
    Hambo, you are spot on with this.

    I have long maintained much of the effectiveness attributed to .45 acp back in the day was the result of better shot placement due to the “shootability” of the 1911 rather than the .45 being the hammer of Thor.

    As another old school gun guy, former African Professsional hunter Finn Agaard said with regard to dangerous game “shot placement is 90 percent of killing power.”

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Hambo, you are spot on with this.

    I have long maintained much of the effectiveness attributed to .45 acp back in the day was the result of better shot placement due to the “shootability” of the 1911 rather than the .45 being the hammer of Thor.

    As another old school gun guy, former African Professsional hunter Finn Agaard said with regard to dangerous game “shot placement is 90 percent of killing power.”
    I've also wondered if people who self selected to carry a 1911 in .45 (or .38 Super for that matter) back in this time period were also more likely to take shooting seriously, and practice, and thus actually hit their target when the shit hammer came down. Although keeping in mind the poor performance of the LRN .38's of the day is also certainly a valid point. It may have been a case of both a better indian, and a better arrow.
    I was into 10mm Auto before it sold out and went mainstream, but these days I'm here for the revolver and epidemiology information.

  3. #13
    Site Supporter Trooper224's Avatar
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    Most of you are far too myopic and you're missing the real point here. Cirillo and Allard were friends and I sense a lot of giving his buddy a good natured hard time in that statement. Also, debating and refuting ideas and statements from forty years ago is largely a pointless errand. This isn't being offered as a definitive statement on the current state of firearms technology after all. People who carried a 1911 may have been more serious about it? Ever heard of people like Bill Jordan and Jack Weaver?

    The real point to be gained here isn't a debate on hardware, but rather as a reflection of a time when the attitudes of law enforcers were quite different than they are today, by and large. Also, would we be better served if more men like Allard and Cirillo were still on the job?
    We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......

  4. #14

    ProArms podcast 010: Save The Blue Trail Range and a Conversation with Bill Allard

    If you haven't heard this one already, you should.

    The ProArms podcast is on the road again. This time we visit the Blue Trail Range in Connecticut. The range has been in existence for over 60 years and now they have been under siege by a developer who wants to shut down the range.
    Gail talks with range owner David Lyman about the problems they have been facing. If you would like to follow what’s happening there or can help them out in any way visit SaveblueTrailRange.org.

    In the second segment Massad and Gail talk to a living legend: Bill Allard. Bill was part of the well known New York City Stake-Out Squad, which was disbanded in the 1970’s. First we talk about the work he is doing now with American Defense Systems, Inc. Then he talks to us about some of his experiences and the mindsetneeded to survive a gunfight. You can read more about Bill Allard and his late partner in Paul Kirchner’s excellent book, “Jim Cirillo’s Tales of the Stakeout Squad.”


    <http://proarmspodcast.com/010-save-blue-trail-range-conversation-bill-allard/>
    010 Save The Blue Trail Range and a Conversation with Bill Allard
    http://proarmspodcast.com/010-save-blue-trail-range-conversation-bill-allard/

  5. #15
    Site Supporter Rex G's Avatar
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    .38 Special and .45 Auto? Yes, of course, I’ll have one of each, thank you. I may be smiling, but I am also serious. These cartridges, and the weapons that chamber them, complement each other.

    Bill Allard and Jim Cirillo. Giants, indeed, and a collective inspiration, to me, as a rookie big-city street cop in the mid-Eighties. I finally met, and learned from, Jim Cirillo at the Snubby Summit in 2005.

    Finding a long-term-reliable .45 auto pistol, however, was a multi-year struggle, which is largely off-topic for this section of the forum. I mostly used revolvers, for duty and defense, 1983-1997, and have never stopped using revolvers at least part-time, for purposes other than police duty. My final assignment, as a senior police officer, next week, will be worked with a .45 ACP 1911 in my duty holster, loaded with Federal HST Tactical. In retirement, I am hoping my arthritic thumb and wrist continue to tolerate .45 ACP for a while longer.

  6. #16
    Site Supporter JodyH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trooper224 View Post
    Also, would we be better served if more men like Allard and Cirillo were still on the job?
    Properly deployed and supported by leadership (modern stakeout squad), yes definitely.
    As rank and file patrol in 2018, probably not.
    "For a moment he felt good about this. A moment or two later he felt bad about feeling good about it. Then he felt good about feeling bad about feeling good about it and, satisfied, drove on into the night."
    -- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy --

  7. #17
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    That was an awesome listen. I concur with Trooper...anyone who was thinking it's all about 9mm vs. 45 ACP was missing the point when he was talking about the (very interesting) stuff he said about how they aimed head shots, the competition shooting/street dynamic, regular practice, hard front sight focus, and his advice on using a correctly constructed bullet to fight with.

    Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Hambo, you are spot on with this.

    I have long maintained much of the effectiveness attributed to .45 acp back in the day was the result of better shot placement due to the “shootability” of the 1911 rather than the .45 being the hammer of Thor.

    As another old school gun guy, former African Professsional hunter Finn Agaard said with regard to dangerous game “shot placement is 90 percent of killing power.”
    This reminds me of an account I read years ago of a soldier somewhere in Africa back in the ‘70s decking five combatants with one shot each, a la Alvin York, from a Star Model B 9mm, which was a copy of the 1911. Being young, I remember thinking “How could this happen with a 9mm pistol?”
    As you stated, the shootability of guns such as these probably account for the successes more than the specific round used.

  9. #19
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deputyG23 View Post
    This reminds me of an account I read years ago of a soldier somewhere in Africa back in the ‘70s decking five combatants with one shot each, a la Alvin York, from a Star Model B 9mm, which was a copy of the 1911. Being young, I remember thinking “How could this happen with a 9mm pistol?”
    As you stated, the shootability of guns such as these probably account for the successes more than the specific round used.
    IIRC it was @Mas who wrote the story and it was a Star PD .45.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

  10. #20
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    The stake out guys ambushed their opponents, and I have no objection to that. My opinion(nothing more)is that their mindset was their stong point.

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