Bill Allard on the 45 Auto

[Tokarev]

Sent by a friend.

Bill and Jim were with with the New York PD "Stakeout Squad" Smoked many a bad guys.........I came across this looking through some documents on my computer by Bill Allard who worked with Jim Cirillo on the Stakeout Squad. I don't remember where I got it, maybe Paul Kirchner. I have concerns about the penetration of heavy bone with smaller caliber pistol bullets like the 9mm and .38 and Allard favors a heavy bullet (like Elmer Keith).

"I will TAKE A 45 ACP AUTO ANY DAY.

I once had a PPC match against Jim Cirillo, he used his revolver with speed loaders and I used my 1911 45 ACP, after we finished the first 6 rounds at 7 yards I put in a fresh mag, and was finished BEFORE HE CLOSED HIS CYLINDER with his remaining 6 rounds.

All thru the course I not only beat him with the speed of the auto, but with accuracy as WELL. Today with the high capacity mags gives one more firepower than 6 SHOTS, there are now double action autos. When you put a 22 cal conversion on a 45 1911 you can shoot cheap ammo, and YOU ONLY HAVE ONE GUN, NOT A EXTRA REVOLVER to worry about.

I amSURE YOU HAVE SEEN A REVOLVER JAM when the bullet is driven forward by the recoil, or a HIGH primer both which NOW GIVE YOU A EXPENSIVE BLACKJACK, because the revolver is now USELESS AS A GUN! You now have a VERY EXPENSIVE BLACK JACK. I can usually clear a auto when the slide does not close because of the above jams on a revolver.

I will take my 45 1911 in a gunfight I can speak with validity as having the most gunfights in NYPD history (having been in THE MOST REAL GUNFIGHTS IN STAKE OUT UNIT, some with Jim Cirillo who used a 38 spec S&W revolver) The 38 will NOT BREAK THRU the large shoulder bone my 45 ALWAYS PENETRATED THIS BONE and went on to punch thru the heart and lungs to KILL THE SOB.

Cirillo always had a bullshit excuse as to why his 38 did not get the job done. I once shot 2 perps in a Mid Town hotel, (using my 1911 NMC) the bullet never exited the first perp, and the second perp I shot thru a THICK Glass Door Killing the perp on the other side of it. The 38 spec would NOT PENETRATE THAT DOOR. Cirillo NEVER GOT A SHOT OFF WITH HIS 38 REVOLVER! The gunfight probably was not more than a THREE SECONDS. SO MUCH FOR REVOLVERS, I am ALIVE TODAY BECAUSE OF MY 1967 NMC 1911 gun that I bought at Camp Perry Ohio. God bless John Browning for his gun that is STILL THE CHOICE OF OUR MILITARY and the FBI Hostage Team as well as their SWAT team.

There are many Police Departments switching over to the 45 1911, I am not aware of any dept going back to the revolver."

BILL ALLARD

A bit dated now perhaps. But still interesting.



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[Trooper224]

From a time when giants walked the earth.

[KhanRad]

In a world full of revolvers, of course a 7-8 shot semi auto was superior. Same argument Jeff Cooper made in the "old days" having more ammo on tap, and then having significantly faster and more reliable reloads were the game changers. With modern equipment, the same could be said today with a 17+1 9mm platform. As far as .45acp "breaking shoulders" go....meh, there have been very mixed results with the .45acp in the last 30 years of OISs. The Keith Borders and Tim Gramins OISs demonstrated that the .45acp is nothing special.

[Hambo]

Allard's success in gunfights probably says more about Bill Allard than his handgun and ammo choices.

[Mike Pipes]

Interesting,thanks for posting......CYA Retro

[Gary1911A1]

Thanks for posting. I believe any pistol that thumps me more on recoil thumps the target harder too so I remain a fan of the .45ACP over the 9MM for carry.

[JohnO]

The second half of the following Podcast is Mas Ayoob interviewing Bill Allard. Great listen.

http://www.podcasts.com/the_proarms_...th_bill_allard

[Chemsoldier]

In a world full of revolvers, of course a 7-8 shot semi auto was superior. Same argument Jeff Cooper made in the "old days" having more ammo on tap, and then having significantly faster and more reliable reloads were the game changers. With modern equipment, the same could be said today with a 17+1 9mm platform. As far as .45acp "breaking shoulders" go....meh, there have been very mixed results with the .45acp in the last 30 years of OISs. The Keith Borders and Tim Gramins OISs demonstrated that the .45acp is nothing special.

.45 ACP may have had a more noticeable advantage in performance in the 60s, 70s and 80s when it was measured against .38 SPC 158 gr RNL, .357 mag semi-jacketed, 9mm hardball and 1st generation HPs. Also, .45 ACP hardball's ability to run well in autos was likely an advantage over early smaller caliber autos where exotic ammo might have had issues, especially for shooters that were not guns and ballistics nerds.

Now days, I agree any advantage in terminal ballistics has been greatly reduced, at least below thresholds that can be easily measured.

[Hambo]

I listened to part of the podcast. If you start at 30:00 Allard talks about their accurate sighted fire, and goes on about seeing his front sight clearly.

[RevolverRob]

A different time, a different world really.

I easily see FMJ "hardball" defeating barriers that .38 LRN would not (Allard's story of the glass door, for instance). Cirillo thought highly of modern ammunition and even discussed using Supervel whenever possible and didn't mind a smaller caliber, if he could shoot it fast and more, but if you read Kirchner's accounts by Cirillo of Stakeout Squad, Cirillo was very clear to say - Shotgun, M1 Carbine (or M2, they had both back then), then handguns with a preference towards larger caliber (.45) or magnum (.357) rounds was the way to end gunfights.