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Thread: Armed Rescue Task Force Medics

  1. #11
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    I'm totally against sending unarmed people into an active scene.

    That said, if, perhaps, you're a small community, with limited LE response available, and a full-time paid fire department that does EMS ( for the reasons that @TGS stated) that this might work for you-IF the agencies involved are all in and willing to spend the training time and money.

    Fire department because you aren't going to want to take providers off of ambulances to do this. If anything you'll be drafting people to drive the ambulances so the (normally) 2 person crew can both be in the back treating the patient(s). (Echoing @Nephrology 's point)

    I work in a large urban area. I have never once been on a violent scene and thought 'there aren't enough cops here'. It makes more sense to me to let the responders who already have the skills, equipment, and experience to move through hot scenes to do that.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCB View Post
    (I’m talking about EMS RTF personel not “armed RTF Medics” which I don’t believe is a thing please correct me if I’m wrong)

    I’m all for more well trained guns on a scene to put in work but that’s not really what RTF is (as I understand it).
    This is literally the point of the article that we're discussing, if you read it.....

    It's about creating the concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by TCB View Post
    If everyone responding could be PJ level gunfighter Medics that would be absolutely amazing but trying to make RTF something other than what it was designed to be (getting EMS out of the COLD zone and into the WARM zone) seems like major mission creep. Having a 2 or 3 hatter in an Agency with PD/Fire/EMS all under one roof is a huge asset but the time and training to get someone to be able to operate at that level let alone the ongoing education hours is HUGE and EXPENSIVE!!! I have mad respect for guys that can do it...it’s a massive level of dedication to the public safety mission.
    Agreed on all.
    Last edited by TGS; 01-05-2018 at 09:40 PM.
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  3. #13
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    Just read it... Yes, if you want medical assets in a HOT zone they need to be super Medic gunfighter ninjas, no exceptions and it’s gonna cost ya’. Whoever is trying to send RTF into HOT zones is fucked up and does not understand the role of RTF. Ditching the RTF format because a boss doesn’t understand how to utilize the asset is just silly.

    The article seems more like sensational journalism than a look at the proper rolls of different assets. If it was titled “Beyond RTF, Tactical Medics for the modern world” it would have been a much better read.
    Last edited by TCB; 01-05-2018 at 09:55 PM.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCB View Post
    Just read it... Yes, if you want medical assets in a HOT zone they need to be super Medic gunfighter ninjas, no exceptions and it’s gonna cost ya’. Whoever is trying to send RTF into HOT zones is fucked up and does not understand the role of RTF. Ditching the RTF format because a boss doesn’t understand how to utilize the asset is just silly.

    The article seems more like sensational journalism than a look at the proper rolls of different assets. If it was titled “Beyond RTF, Tactical Medics for the modern world” it would have been a much better read.
    I don't think anyone is intending to send RTFs into the hot zone, or to ditch RTFs (the end-state being to provide pt care/extraction in the warm zone, instead of waiting for the scene to be definitively locked-down).


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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    I think you make a lot of good points, but I disagree that you can't make an effective medical-component RTF responder out of LEOs.

    Frankly, it does not take years of experience to fill that role effectively. The US military and efficacy of its CLS and combat medic/corpsman system is pretty overwhelming evidence of taking people with no experience and making them effective at delivering the basics of TCCC.
    TGS, I think we’re mostly on the same page. Anyone with a mostly functioning brain can be taught to be a pretty good medic, the difference is in clinical application. It’s one thing to read it in a book, it another to actually do it on the street.

    Even military medics get a lot of clinical time. I know that, at least in the case of the SOCOM medic program, they actually come ride with us and some other departments in the area for training, they also do rotations at major trauma facilities.

    I would wager, though, that the inverse of what I recommended would produce a high quality end product as well. If you took a police officer, sent him/her to medic school and then had them do rotations between the street as a police officer and working on an ALS rescue with their fire department contemporaries, you basically end up with the same end result.

    Whether you take police officers and have them ride as medics or take medics and have them ride as police officers, you pretty much end up in the same spot. The key to success lies not in where you start but where you end up and how you end up there.

    I’ve actually read about some smaller departments that have combined fire rescue and police forces, everyone is both a firefighter/paramedic and a police officer and they rotate around.

    While that may work in small town America, I don’t think it’s applicable in major metropolitan areas for a variety of reasons, however, on a smaller scale within a larger department with an individual that has the correct mindset, this is a good solution.

    The key is training. Being a cop and being a medic don’t require one to be a rocket scientist, however, if you’re going to do both then you have to train to do both and it’s going to require a lot of people to start looking differently at how emergency services are structured and how they serve the people they protect.

    Not all that long ago people thought it was absurd that firefighters would also be paramedics, now combined agencies are pretty much the norm. Right now people think it’s absurd to arm firefighters/paramedics, but the reality is we live in a far different world than we did 20 years ago. Do we need to arm the whole department? No. In fact I don’t even think that’s healthy for public image and perception, however, with the rise in mass shootings and international terrorism, the need is here for there to be armed professionals capable of delivering, at a minimum, high quality ALS care in an austere environment.

    I think it’s also worth nothing that when someone has to be proficient at two very specialized tasks, they’re probably going to be significantly more proficient at one than another. In the application of a SWAT medic, TEMS or first in type medic, their scope of police work pretty much applies to tor basics in use of force, building cleaning and tactics and their speciality lies in medicine. The finer points of specialized police work, while important, aren’t really utilized in the capacity of a medic attached to a SWAT team or other LEO element.

    At the end of the day, I don’t think that there is one truly perfect solution, and perhaps despite trying not to be, as a firefighter I may be a bit biased. My father was a police officer and I’ve talked to him about this exact topic; he was around when they first started implementing armed paramedics onto the SWAT team and it’s always been a sore subject. Do we send cops medic school or medics to cop school?


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  6. #16
    First off...

    Not a LEO. Not a Firefighter.

    Just a long time active duty USAF Pararescueman who finds this topic interesting.

    This is also my first post after lurking on this forum for years!

    I recall crossing paths with Firefighters who investigate arson who are armed and have a badge/credentials like LEOs?

    What would be the feasibility/capability of establishing a program like that with similar authorities for city/county firefighters who are RTF members?

    Thoughts?

  7. #17
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    TGS, copy. Mia culpa. I think we probably agree on almost everything about this stuff. I won’t derail this thread any longer.

    But it’s literally in the first paragraph...

    “Rescue Task Force? Nope. Train Them & Arm Them
    Denny Ducet | 01.04.2018

    There is a dangerous idea making the rounds of law enforcement circles and I want to go on the record. Many agencies support the concept of sending unarmed “rescue task force personnel” into the hot zones of terrorist or active shooter incidents. This just sends additional unarmed future victims into harms way.”
    Last edited by TCB; 01-05-2018 at 10:38 PM.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zulu Kilo View Post
    First off...

    Not a LEO. Not a Firefighter.

    Just a long time active duty USAF Pararescueman who finds this topic interesting.

    This is also my first post after lurking on this forum for years!

    I recall crossing paths with Firefighters who investigate arson who are armed and have a badge/credentials like LEOs?

    What would be the feasibility/capability of establishing a program like that with similar authorities for city/county firefighters who are RTF members?

    Thoughts?
    We have armed arson investigators here with le creds/arrest powers, which is sort of what I eluded to in my posts above. The feasibility/capability of establishing a program lies in leadership actually wanting to actively pursue it.

    These types of programs are uncharted territory, expensive and controversial as they don’t conform to tradition; combine that with the fact that the odds of actually needing these sort of highly trained and specialized medics being pretty slim, it’s easier for leadership to just bury their heads in the sand, ignore the need for it and just do damage control when or if an event ever happens.

    If someone in leadership got behind something like this at a large metropolitan department that has the budget (I know mine certainly does) they could be a national trend setter.


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  9. #19
    THE THIRST MUTILATOR Nephrology's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TQP View Post
    Fire department because you aren't going to want to take providers off of ambulances to do this. If anything you'll be drafting people to drive the ambulances so the (normally) 2 person crew can both be in the back treating the patient(s). (Echoing @Nephrology 's point).
    I'm actually buddies with one of FDNY's deputy medical directors who's also an ER doc in one of NYC's big trauma centers. He was one of the first to respond on scene to the truck attack a couple months back. He said first thing he did was get NYPD officers to drive FDNY's ambulances for him for exactly that reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    It'd likely be the UOF policy of the LE agency that deputizes them for the armed RTF position.

    Out of everything that could possibly be a problem with the idea of armed RTF medics, I think this is about as far down the totem pole you can get.
    How about legal liability? Imagine an armed Paramedic opens fire on an armed suspect who is, say, fleeing the scene. From my understanding of the use of lethal force in LE, this would be potentially acceptable assuming they could operate under this authority -but what if they don't?

    Not to mention legal liability if an armed paramedic opens fire and strikes a bystander, or strikes a suspect who is surrendering/no longer armed, etc. That is sort of what I was envisioning to be the biggest potential issue if we tried to arm EMS who are not also sworn LE.
    Last edited by Nephrology; 01-05-2018 at 11:26 PM.

  10. #20
    I retired in September after 29 years in the fire service. Our department was implementing the RTF during the last 6 months or so before I retired, with a lot more training and drilling on the horizon. Our area has a regional EMS authority, that basically owns the rolling stock and gear, and contracts a private company to provide the paramedic people. It's more complicated than that, but that's a workable approximation. The three major fire departments all run paramedic engine companies, and two do some transport. Almost all of the non-paramedic fire personnel are intermediate EMTs.
    The regional ambulance agency provides tactical medics (TEMS) to all of the area SWAT teams. They are specially selected, and train extensively with the SWAT teams. Their primary role is immediate care of a downed SWAT member. They'll assist a civilian or crook only if it doesn't compromise their ability to provide for SWAT. During a mass shooting response, the TEMS can't stop to render care to wounded victims and drag them out, while still fulfilling their obligation to accompany SWAT in clearing hallways/rooms/buildings. Stripping the medics off of the assault exposes the assaulters to higher risk. And, you'll run out of TEMS medics long before you run out of victims.
    The RTF concept is to take FD personnel and team them up with PD personnel. The PD focuses only of security of the RTF. The FD focuses only on rapid patient assessment, immediate control of life threatening bleeding or airway problems, and extraction of vics to the treatment area. It's planned as one PD with three FD on each task force. The key point is that the RTF only enters AFTER the assaulters (who might not actually be SWAT) have swept and cleared an area and are confident that the shooter isn't there. Note that "confident" isn't the same as "absolutely certain"; absolutely certain can take hours to establish. There are a lot of moving parts to that determination such as distance, building layout, construction type, intel on the shooter, etc. The goal is to get bandaids on boo-boos in the short time frame before saveable victims bleed to death or die from respiratory compromise, but without getting us into a likely line of fire. It is most certainly NOT sending "unarmed future victims" into the heart of the fray with the initial assault team. This is also not for use in a normal SWAT call, such as a barricaded suspect with one or two potential vics in a small area like a house. This is for a mass casualty event where resources are stretched.
    The program we were using was based on extensive research by a couple of very sharp FD members who went to outside training and really did their homework. The trainers they worked with stated that pulling PD away from PD duties to do EMS degraded the PD response to an unacceptable level and wasn't viewed as a workable solution. The PD side of the house is fully on board. We have a great working relationship with our PD, by the way. This probably wouldn't fly if we didn't.
    It's impossible to lay out the nuances of how this would go down in a thread post. Each situation has to be assessed by competent supervisors as it develops.
    Lets not forget that we make our decisions based on risk vs. reward. The real probability of saving additional lives justifies taking a higher level of managed risk. I think I'd be exposed to less risk on a properly run RTF than I was while crawling through a burning building in almost no visibility with no idea how many cans of bug killer the resident had in the kitchen, or knowing whether he stored propane tanks in the closet, or how quickly his bootleg remodel was going to collapse on top of me.
    We could easily keep the FD/EMS folks safe by staging blocks away behind our big steel fire trucks while the teachers, students, or coworkers of the shot victims provided care the best they could until the crook was down, the building was swept by EOD for booby traps, and the biohazard was cleaned up. I don't think most of us would sleep very well after that call, though.

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