Armed Rescue Task Force Medics

[TGS]

An article promoting that RTF medics are armed:

Rescue Task Force? Nope. Train Them and Arm Them

A lot of commentary on the errornet seems to be from people who are confused and don't understand what RTF personnel are versus a street medic, or versus a tactical medic which is embedded in a team. So if you don't know the difference, read this primer before you read the article.

Thought I'd put it here for discussion as the concept would likely require some level of deputization. Personally, in a perfect world I like the concept. I'm not sure what the final product would look like in real world, however, where municipalities and counties are trying to skimp on even giving actual cops the proper amount of training in the name of cutting costs.

I have some concerns about the RTF concept in general, as ideally you need those EMTs and medics outside to transport the patients....so feel free to offer commentary about the RTF model in general, and about how your area has chosen to implement the RTF model, or made a conscious decision against it.

[Hambo]

My initial thought is that RTF sounds like we have our bases covered, but in reality it's not going to happen. Look at Orlando and Vegas. Regular EMS units and patrol officers did the evacuation to hospitals.

More later when I have time.

[Nephrology]

Well think I just found my dream job. Would be a perfect fit if I complete the ER -> Critical Care pathway.

edit to contribute slightly more:

Do most PDs/SOs have the resources to put together TEMS units or even TEMS members of a SWAT team?

The issue to me seems that it would be very difficult to get enough Paramedics to buy in to the kind of training that would be required to make them effective - let alone not actively counter productive.While I understand and sympathize with Chris Kyle's mindset ("if you're wearing a vest you should be carrying a gun") the reality is it takes a lot less training to put on a vest than it does to effectively use a handgun as a first responder.

Perhaps I am confused, as the author refers to giving training to RTF members. If RTFs are quickly assembled in the field by on-site 1st responders, how do you ensure that they received weapons and tactical training in advance? Most metro areas have >1 ambulance company between private, fire, and public EMS. Unless you got them all to buy in, it seems impossible to ensure that the first responding ambulance crew would have the training to use a weapon effectively as part of an RTF.

Not to mention the hazy legal ground re: their use of force.... but maybe I'm misunderstanding the thrust of the article.

[DNW]

I have done both jobs.

You can give cops TEMS supplies and minimal training and save lives. The reverse is not true for giving medics vests and guns.

If you have the time and money to give them proper training, give them the badges and authority to go with it.

[TGS]

I have done both jobs.

You can give cops TEMS supplies and minimal training and save lives. The reverse is not true for giving medics vests and guns.

If you have the time and money to give them proper training, give them the badges and authority to go with it.

I think you have a good point, especially given almost everything you do as an RTF is going to be BLS-level skills.

There's a lot more to the training required for an armed RTF responder than just being qualified on the shooting itself.

ETA: Thinking on it as an economy-of-resources measure, you can give a cop 1 week of solid TCCC/trauma training and they'll be pretty fucking competent for what's needed in the Care-under-fire and tactical-field-care portion of the RTF. Sending these guys to this training is going to take no extra screening for a candidate pool, either.

However, to take EMTs/medics and make them competent armed RTF responders is going to take 4-5 weeks of training, in my estimation, as well as an extensive screening process.

Do most PDs/SOs have the resources to put together TEMS units or even TEMS members of a SWAT team?

My exposure to such local teams was New Jersey, where the ALS assets are contracted at the county level and run as an EMS service, generally by the local trauma center. The SWAT medics that were in stacks were on-call with the team as an official duty through their regular day job as a medic. My hospital had a former sheriff on the board, so our department was told to do it as a public service without receiving any compensation for such, and the team members were outfitted with either limited hand-me-downs from the LEO members, or using self-purchased gear with no reimbursement. Other services were formally contracted by the county SWAT team (SWAT in NJ is generally at the county level).

Besides training with the team, these guys would usually do TCCC courses and compete for slots at CONTOMS. Probably about half the ones I knew had LE experience, whether that be as reserve officers at another department, or prior full-time LEOs.

At the very least, a SWAT team in my area would generally get an ambulance dispatched to standby for warrant service in addition to have the 1-2 guys embedded with the team.

The issue to me seems that it would be very difficult to get enough Paramedics to buy in to the kind of training that would be required to make them effective - let alone not actively counter productive.While I understand and sympathize with Chris Kyle's mindset ("if you're wearing a vest you should be carrying a gun") the reality is it takes a lot less training to put on a vest than it does to effectively use a handgun as a first responder.

Agreed. My wife and I met in EMS, and we both feel the same way in that EMS is generally composed of 3 types of people, split pretty evenly into thirds: the first third are people who cannot or will not pursue any greater education or life skills. The second third are people who are working in EMS as a stepping stone (going to nursing school, going into a related career field like work safety, or whatever). The final third are people who are just doing it for fun; we had a multi-millionaire retired tech c-suite executive, a handsomely paid railroad management officer, teachers during breaks, and a retail store owner who drove a Dodge Viper as his daily runabout.

There's a lot of wannabe cops, wannabe pararescuemen, etc in the that first third of people. They're going to be a pretty harsh liability on the efficacy of armed RTF responders, and such is going to be a very difficult thing to screen for in an industry that is rated by the Bureau of Labor Statistics as one of the most underpaid professions in America. A professional, government run service (particularly under Fire Departments) will negate a big portion of this because of the associated competitiveness to get on those jobs.

Perhaps I am confused, as the author refers to giving training to RTF members. If RTFs are quickly assembled in the field by on-site 1st responders, how do you ensure that they received weapons and tactical training in advance? Most metro areas have >1 ambulance company between private, fire, and public EMS. Unless you got them all to buy in, it seems impossible to ensure that the first responding ambulance crew would have the training to use a weapon effectively as part of an RTF.

This is one of the points that my wife and I talked about over dinner. In both of our observations, we thought the only effective way to make it work is if you have a primarily tax-driven, government run EMS response (whether the EMS be it's own independent service or part of a FD). It's going to fail miserably in any revenue-driven department, especially private ones.

Ensuring there's enough on any given shift is going to be an issue.

Not to mention the hazy legal ground re: their use of force.... but maybe I'm misunderstanding the thrust of the article.

There's no hazy legal ground about a medic using a weapon to protect their patient(s). The non-LEO medic members of county SWAT teams I know (on two teams) were both qualified on both their teams primary long guns and handguns for exactly that reason, and actually wore empty holsters so they could safely take control of an incapacitated member's sidearm so as to not burden the other team members that are already jocked up.

[Mr. Goodtimes]

I think that the correct path is to do something similar to what many agencies do with their SWAT medics, TEMS, whatever you want to call them. Not all agencies arm their medics, however we do.

At my department we send our SWAT Medics to the police academy, they become sworn reserve officers with the Sheriffs Department and therefore possess arrest powers and are armed.

They train a couple times a month with the SWAT team and they are also encouraged to work overtime helping out with serving warrants etc... to stay fresh.

Currently we keep all of our SWAT medics at one Station, they run calls like normal firefighters however, if the SWAT team gets a call out, they go out of service, gear up and respond. IMO it’s far from the best way to do things, but it is the cheapest because it requires the least amount of man power.

I think that a lot of the issues we have are related to resistance to change. Many people don’t want to admit that times are changing and it’s probably time to start looking at arming EMS crews or at a minimum having armed crews prepared to respond to an active shooter or terrorist incident.

If we are going to send an EMS worker into an environment that involves them wearing a vest, they absolutely, positively need to be armed and possess the ability to defend them selves.

I can assure you, If someone handed me a vest with the intend of sending me into the hot zone, I better have a firearm and the appropriate training to go with it, and preferably a long gun.

I understand that smaller departments may not have the budget, however, in an area like where I work (large metropolitan department) we have the budget, or at least could, and absolutely have access to the resources.

I think the solution is to have multiple armed paramedics on duty every shift scattered through the departments various stations. This would obviously be a highly specialized position but, just like we have arson investigators and air truck drivers, training officers and other specialized positions, we need to have an armed medic position. They would have LEO credentials and receive all the specialized training that goes with their jobs.

These medics would be assigned a station to work out of and respond from, however, they rotate every month between being at the fire station on an ALS apparatus of some kind, and riding shotgun with a SWAT officer while he’s on patrol. In both instances they would be armed and ready to respond to an incident.

You can’t hand a medic a gun and expect him or her to be a good law enforcement officer and you can’t hand a law enforcement officer a trauma bag and expect him or her to be a good medic, their both highly specialized positions that require years of experience; IMO the solution I propose above provides the best solution.

Also, I do think it’s more appropriate to arm medics than it is to turn cops into medics such is the case with SWAT medics. A SWAT medic is a medic first and foremost and a SWAT team member second. Kicking doors and doing basic SWAT work is a lot easier to teach someone than the other way around. As a SWAT medic you’re somewhat insulated from having to do most police work, however, if you have to render aid you’re THE medic, and that requires a lot of experience and training that can only be acquired from years of actual application of skills. An armed medic has a very specific job that does not involve a lot of what police actually do.








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[TCB]

There are two distinct parts of the RTF team as I understand it. EMS & Security for the EMS (LEO). The EMS segment is 100% focused on patient care and the security eminent is well...there to protect them. The Security element takes the EMS element into the WARM zone to find patients cover them while they are there and escorts them out. RTF does not operate in the HOT zone.

Arming the EMS seems like a waste of training time (it’s like pulling teeth just to get all the moving parts in one place at one time for RTF trainings as it is), if individual EMS personnel wants to go armed they should seek a position as a Tactical Medic and get trained up as there is a lot more to it than just handing a EMT a gun and a vest and say go for it (what is a EMS systems UOF policy anyway?). We do conduct some weapons familiarization with out local EMS guys and gals who participate in RTF in case of a worst case scenario (security element is engaged and goes down) so they can pick up one of our weapons and defend themselves if necessary.

[TGS]

(what is a EMS systems UOF policy anyway?).

It'd likely be the UOF policy of the LE agency that deputizes them for the armed RTF position.

Out of everything that could possibly be a problem with the idea of armed RTF medics, I think this is about as far down the totem pole you can get.

[TGS]

I think that the correct path is to do something similar to what many agencies do with their SWAT medics, TEMS, whatever you want to call them. Not all agencies arm their medics, however we do.

At my department we send our SWAT Medics to the police academy, they become sworn reserve officers with the Sheriffs Department and therefore possess arrest powers and are armed.

They train a couple times a month with the SWAT team and they are also encouraged to work overtime helping out with serving warrants etc... to stay fresh.

Currently we keep all of our SWAT medics at one Station, they run calls like normal firefighters however, if the SWAT team gets a call out, they go out of service, gear up and respond. IMO it’s far from the best way to do things, but it is the cheapest because it requires the least amount of man power.

I think that a lot of the issues we have are related to resistance to change. Many people don’t want to admit that times are changing and it’s probably time to start looking at arming EMS crews or at a minimum having armed crews prepared to respond to an active shooter or terrorist incident.

If we are going to send an EMS worker into an environment that involves them wearing a vest, they absolutely, positively need to be armed and possess the ability to defend them selves.

I can assure you, If someone handed me a vest with the intend of sending me into the hot zone, I better have a firearm and the appropriate training to go with it, and preferably a long gun.

I understand that smaller departments may not have the budget, however, in an area like where I work (large metropolitan department) we have the budget, or at least could, and absolutely have access to the resources.

I think the solution is to have multiple armed paramedics on duty every shift scattered through the departments various stations. This would obviously be a highly specialized position but, just like we have arson investigators and air truck drivers, training officers and other specialized positions, we need to have an armed medic position. They would have LEO credentials and receive all the specialized training that goes with their jobs.

These medics would be assigned a station to work out of and respond from, however, they rotate every month between being at the fire station on an ALS apparatus of some kind, and riding shotgun with a SWAT officer while he’s on patrol. In both instances they would be armed and ready to respond to an incident.

You can’t hand a medic a gun and expect him or her to be a good law enforcement officer and you can’t hand a law enforcement officer a trauma bag and expect him or her to be a good medic, their both highly specialized positions that require years of experience; IMO the solution I propose above provides the best solution.

Also, I do think it’s more appropriate to arm medics than it is to turn cops into medics such is the case with SWAT medics. A SWAT medic is a medic first and foremost and a SWAT team member second. Kicking doors and doing basic SWAT work is a lot easier to teach someone than the other way around. As a SWAT medic you’re somewhat insulated from having to do most police work, however, if you have to render aid you’re THE medic, and that requires a lot of experience and training that can only be acquired from years of actual application of skills. An armed medic has a very specific job that does not involve a lot of what police actually do.








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I think you make a lot of good points, but I disagree that you can't make an effective medical-component RTF responder out of LEOs.

Frankly, it does not take years of experience to fill that role effectively. The US military and efficacy of its CLS and combat medic/corpsman system is pretty overwhelming evidence of taking people with no experience and making them effective at delivering the basics of TCCC.

[TCB]

It'd likely be the UOF policy of the LE agency that deputizes them for the armed RTF position.

Out of everything that could possibly be a problem with the idea of armed RTF medics, I think this is about as far down the totem pole you can get.

Not according to the Fire Chiefs in my AO, I can’t imagine the bosses at private EMS company’s would back one of thier hourly civilian employees who smokes someone working under there insurance rider either. (I’m talking about EMS RTF personel not “armed RTF Medics” which I don’t believe is a thing please correct me if I’m wrong)

I’m all for more well trained guns on a scene to put in work but that’s not really what RTF is (as I understand it). If everyone responding could be PJ level gunfighter Medics that would be absolutely amazing but trying to make RTF something other than what it was designed to be (getting EMS out of the COLD zone and into the WARM zone) seems like major mission creep. Having a 2 or 3 hatter in an Agency with PD/Fire/EMS all under one roof is a huge asset but the time and training to get someone to be able to operate at that level let alone the ongoing education hours is HUGE and EXPENSIVE!!! I have mad respect for guys that can do it...it’s a massive level of dedication to the public safety mission.