What's your favorite striker-fired action based on internal engineeing and design?

[Doc_Glock]

I'm thinking of making a video detailing the APX mechanism since I didn't see one around, but that will take me a while, since I'm quite busy at the moment.

I hope you can do that some time.

[SteveB]

Can a pistol be too easy to shoot? For me, the answer is yes, but it depends on the purpose of the pistol. For some months now, I’ve been messing around with a pair of CZ P10C’s. I’ve found these pistols to be great in terms of ergonomics and inherent accuracy. This discussion we’re having is all about the trigger, though, and light, short triggers are widely viewed to be “easier to shoot” in the sense that manipulating the trigger without moving the pistol (sights) is what we strive for. I think the P10 is a terrific SFA match gun, but will not carry one. Same is true for the PPQ and the VP9, both of which I shot a lot over the last few years. Part of this is a safety issue, but most of it relates to the many discussions we’ve had on this forum regarding defensive use of the pistol as it relates to trigger travel distance and pull weight. Even though my current match gun is a CZ Shadow, and I carry a PX4CC, I spent a lot of years shooting and carrying Glocks exclusively. Of all the striker guns, Glock unquestionably has the most extensive track record. One only has to read Tom’s analysis of the Glock fire control system to realize that this system is the “safest” considering all factors. Saying a particular system is perfectly safe as long as it’s nice & clean doesn’t fill me with confidence. Seems to me that the Glock trigger can be made “easier to shoot” with a 3.5 lb connector and a 5 lb striker spring without making the system less safe. Having said that, if I carry a Glock, it will have factory spec trigger components. In a defensive role, I don’t want it “easier to shoot”.

[LockedBreech]

I ended up choosing the Glock 19/17 Gen 4 system over the HK VP9, a gun I had thousands of rounds through and shot very well before I ended up trading off, for a very simple, personal reason: With thousands of side-by-side dry fires, I found I was able to predict the break of the Glock MUCH better. The VP9 trigger, while a delight that made me an ace at the range, was (on my example anyway) too smooth and light for me to always know when it was going to fire, at least compared to the very, very clear Glock "wall" that serves me well.

For a range gun that was fine, but I wanted a defense gun, and for me, the Glock system is the best balance between shootability and safety.

[ReverendMeat]

I've been off the last few weeks and had plenty of time to Google "PPQ dead trigger." Based on all of that reading and connecting all the dots, it seems the PPQ with its Quick Trigger design might be vulnerable to lack of cleaning and lubrication in the sear assembly.

While some have been able to get the sear to release by hitting their PPQ with a mallet, others have performed the "mallet test" and the sear held. Some who had the sear release try the same test again after cleaning & lube and the sear held. There have been zero reports of discharges as the firing pin block prevents the striker from moving unless the trigger is pulled. In my case I can drop my PPQ repeatedly and beat it with a mallet until I'm blue in the face and have yet to get the sear to release a single time. But then again I'm anal-retentive about keeping my firearms clean and lubed (as in doing so after every firing session) and don't normally beat my guns with a mallet.

So while the reports of the PPQ failing the "mallet test" are far from universal, what does appear universal is praise for the trigger pull and the shooter's ability to attain great accuracy with the PPQ. As an "accuracy guy" (and precision rifle shooter) those traits have great appeal to me, even in a pistol.

I would agree with Trooper224's review below that the PPQ is not for everyone, especially the inexperienced. But if you appreciate a superb trigger pull, great ergonomics and outstanding accuracy, and as a shooter have good trigger discipline and don't mind doing the maintenance, the PPQ is a very tough act to follow from a pure shooting performance stand point.
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No argument here, I love the PPQ, carried one for awhile and I shot it objectively better than anything else. But for me, the potential issue is just another push towards the P99 instead if I were given the choice between the two.

[arcfide]

The Beretta APX has done fairly well in some recent trials and appears to have good potential, however, the design is still very new and has not seen enough hard service use to determine how it will fair over the long term.

This is very true, and as the P320 has shown, it can take a long time for some issues to pop up over time. I'm very interested to see how all of these pistols fair over the long term. The new pistols are finally beginning to get some larger contracts, so it will be interesting to see how they hold up under those conditions.

[arcfide]

So here's another design thought that comes to me in this discussion and reflecting over Tom's post, specifically the view that the striker block should be considered a "secondary" safety as opposed to a first order safety. While this is true in respect to not allowing the striker to drop in the first place, I wonder how the perspective shifts when we compare the striker designs to the DA/SA designs.

I find it hard to imagine anything more drop safe than the Px4 F DA/SA design and similar designs. When put on safety, the trigger is fully disconnected, the hammer is down and without full tension, the firing pin has spring tension and the firing pin block preventing it from going forward, the rear access to the firing pin is blocked by the safety bar, and possibly, but I'm not sure, the firing pin block lever that raises up the firing pin block might be prevented from full rotation as well (I need to go check on that, but I don't have my Px4 with me right now). However, the primary thing preventing the firing pin from moving under inertia is the firing pin block, from what I can tell. This would seem to make the firing pin block the "primary safety" in this case, though I suppose one could argue that because the firing pin is under spring tension, that the spring is the primary, though I feel that's a stretch.

Of course, this is a "relaxed state" system, whereas the SFA puts things at tension all the time. This would be more akin to the Px4 in Single action. Even here, the firing pin movement is primarily blocked by the firing pin block, even though there are separate safety systems in place to prevent the hammer from hitting the firing pin if it jumps or breaks through the sear accidentally (Langdon's videos demonstrating how the single action M9 drops to half cock come to mind). In this case, you might argue that the firing pin block is both a primary and a secondary at the same time?

[NH Shooter]

Can a pistol be too easy to shoot? For me, the answer is yes, but it depends on the purpose of the pistol.

I think what you meant by this post is can a trigger be too light for self-defensive purposes. I would agree that it absolutely can be, but within reason is wholly dependent on the operator. At the same time, they can also be too heavy as witnessed by the NYPD's abysmal hit ratio with their 8-pound Glock "NY triggers."

Vickers on Pistol Trigger Pull Weight

Give me pistol characteristics (trigger pull, ergonomics, etc.) that makes it easier to shoot - as in hitting the target - any day of the week.

Of course, this is a "relaxed state" system, whereas the SFA puts things at tension all the time. This would be more akin to the Px4 in Single action. Even here, the firing pin movement is primarily blocked by the firing pin block, even though there are separate safety systems in place to prevent the hammer from hitting the firing pin if it jumps or breaks through the sear accidentally (Langdon's videos demonstrating how the single action M9 drops to half cock come to mind). In this case, you might argue that the firing pin block is both a primary and a secondary at the same time?

IMO, you have to look at striker pistol safeties as systems, not as individual components or as "primary - secondary." The ultimate purpose of the safety system is to prevent the pistol from discharging when it's not supposed to. In regards to the PPQ I have yet to read of any documented cases of discharging when dropped (or even whacked with a mallet). The PPQ's safety system of not allowing movement of the striker without a deliberate pull of the trigger by all accounts works as designed.

These conversations are good to have. It informs owners of potential issues so they can check their own samples. My sample of the PPQ has passed every "cause a dead trigger" test I've thrown at it and I can shoot it (as in hitting the target) better than I ever could the G17. Now that I know what to look for I'll keep an eye on it, but as long as it continues to function correctly I will carry it with total confidence.

[NH Shooter]

"Easy to shoot" is usually -- around here, and in my estimation -- shorthand for a combination "light" and "short travel".

Understood. But what's "too light" or "too short"?

For weight I think LV's suggestion of 4 to 6 pounds is reasonable, with 5 perhaps the sweet spot. I would define "short travel" as a single stage trigger (like a 1911) or the SA pull of most TDA pistols. I don't think any of the current striker pistols can even remotely be thought of having "short trigger travel."

To think of those who carried (and still carry) tuned 1911s cocked-and-locked, and here we're debating a striker pistol that requires 5+ pounds and almost a half inch of intentional pull to make it go bang as "too light and too short." Not only can ole' Gaston be credited for creating an AK for the pistol-carrying (and mostly poorly trained) masses, but for also brainwashing some into believing that a long, heavy trigger pull on a pistol is a substitute for trigger discipline.

John Browning is spinning in his grave...

[GJM]

The PPQ trigger has more take up than a Glock, VP9 and P10C (and in that order). It’s trigger weight is also on par with those.

[dpadams6]

OP, right on with the APX, I noticed the same things last time I had one apart. Impressive in its simplicity, in clever ways, without straight copying a glock like some do. Another you should take a peek at is the ruger american, its fcg looks completely different than anything else, took me a good minute to figure out how it worked. I also appreciate the p99/ppq for the reasons you mentioned but it is disconcerting how easy it seems to be for the fp to drop without a trigger pull. That's the price we pay for the "shoter and lighter = better" mentality.

I don't believe that is the case with the p99? Striker is decocked.