1911 thumb safety vs finger off trigger

[41magfan]

So, Yes but no too.
If one was drawing with the decision to shoot having been made, then this is / was Yes. If one was drawing to the Guard, low ready, to challenge someone then the safety stayed on until the decision to fire was made.
Click, the point at which one rotates the muzzlew from downward to horizontal & onto the threat, should be equal to the retention position. It is not extended forward.

With the movement away from 1911s and to polymer frame pistols without external mechanical thumb safeties some of this got lost. Having moved from a 1911 to a M&P to a Glock and soon back to the M&P, I get the need for a discussion. I am a fan of the idea that when one is Off Target they are On Safe and when On Target they are Off Safe - regardless of the platform as long as it has an ergonomic (frame mounted) thumb safety - like the 1911, M&P, AR, etc.

As for an index point, being a left hander I could not do an ejection port index if I tried. My preference has been the Frame / Slide interface.

"At what point in the draw cycle do you operate the safety on a 1911? Is it only right before pressing the trigger, once sights are fully aligned, or do you do it at point 3 of the draw (through the press out)?"


I was addressing the subject in the context of the OP's question and I used the term "presentation" deliberately. I would think it goes without saying that there are a host of reasons you would manipulate the safety differently if you weren't presenting the gun to the target with the intentions of firing.

I apologize if I wasn't clear with my response.

[CraigS]

In messing with the two side by side I have identified what I believe is the primary issue for me:

The trigger guard on the 1911 is quite a bit smaller. The issue comes as my finger moves from register (frame or ejection port) into the trigger guard. Because the Glock is larger I can come straight down and in. Because the 1911 is smaller I have to move my finger away from the gun, bend it, and reinsert it I to the trigger guard. This feels odd/uncomfortable. Something I’ll have to work on.

Looks to me that the actual internal area of the trigger guards are very similar. But the 1911 is much closer to the grip than the Glock. I have no 1911 experience so this may be a dumb question. As w/ many current pistols, which have various sized back straps, is there something similar available for a 1911?

[JustOneGun]

Trigger finger as high up on the frame as a shooter can (slide if you can get there).

I liked to keep the 1911 simple. When the trigger finger moves down to go on the trigger the safety comes down(off). Opposite when the finger comes off the safety. Usually for most the finger should be moving to the trigger at the end of step 3 at the earliest. For some they have problems doing two things at once (small hands) and they take the safety off right before they move the finger.

[Mas]

If I'm drawing to fire, the safety comes off as I begin to press out. If drawing to a low ready, the safety stays on.

I keep my trigger finger on the frame just below the slide, though I am experimenting with moving it up higher onto the slide. It's not as natural or comfortable, but once during a class I noticed the slide release had moved out just a bit because of pressure from my trigger finger. But it feels more natural that way so I'm not sure I'll make the change or not.

I've seen the same problem with right-handed shooters and straight finger on 1911s.

One solution that we've found to work very well: index the fingertip just behind the protruding stud of the slide stop. (Fingernail rests against the side of the stud that is toward the shooter.)

This keeps the finger right in position to enter the small trigger guard when shooter decides to do so.

Being above the trigger guard, finger is less likely to snap into trigger than if held with straight finger on front of guard, as has been taught in some quarters.

If finger does inadvertently enter the guard, it's coming ACROSS the trigger --- vastly less likely to cause unintended discharge.

More resistant to disarming attempts. Most disarms will begin with a lateral strike to the gun to get it off the assailant's midline. Strike to the right against a right-handed defender drives the pistol against a straight index finger, whether that finger is on slide or frame. This hyperextends the index finger back toward the wrist, sympathetically releasing the pistol and leaving the attacker with the good guy's gun, and good guy perhaps with a broken trigger finger to boot. Flexed finger is much more resistant to such a strike, less likely to cause sympathetic opening of other fingers, and is therefore much stronger against a disarming attempt.

[JTQ]

Gunsite's Ed Head on a GunTalk TV video, at about the :40 mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGGxwJrrABY

[Robinson]

I've seen the same problem with right-handed shooters and straight finger on 1911s.

One solution that we've found to work very well: index the fingertip just behind the protruding stud of the slide stop. (Fingernail rests against the side of the stud that is toward the shooter.)

This keeps the finger right in position to enter the small trigger guard when shooter decides to do so.

Being above the trigger guard, finger is less likely to snap into trigger than if held with straight finger on front of guard, as has been taught in some quarters.

If finger does inadvertently enter the guard, it's coming ACROSS the trigger --- vastly less likely to cause unintended discharge.

More resistant to disarming attempts. Most disarms will begin with a lateral strike to the gun to get it off the assailant's midline. Strike to the right against a right-handed defender drives the pistol against a straight index finger, whether that finger is on slide or frame. This hyperextends the index finger back toward the wrist, sympathetically releasing the pistol and leaving the attacker with the good guy's gun, and good guy perhaps with a broken trigger finger to boot. Flexed finger is much more resistant to such a strike, less likely to cause sympathetic opening of other fingers, and is therefore much stronger against a disarming attempt.

Thanks for addressing my comment Mr. Ayoob. I will certainly try what you have suggested.

[Lomshek]

I'm just a punk kid compared to Mas and others but have taught (and use) something similar to Mas' method depending on the gun/hand. Sometimes the pad of the trigger finger can rest on the bottom edge of the ejection port or a relief cut on the bottom edge of the slide and sometimes it sits on, on top of or around the slide stop stud or some other tactile part of the gun that is high up above the trigger.

For students I try to identify something they can feel in the area above the trigger that locates their finger in a safe extended position. Any kind of tactile indicator is good as it reminds them where their finger should (or should not) be.

[Wayne Dobbs]

As somebody who appreciates the fact that a cocked and locked 1911 is extremely proprietary to the user, and who's alive today because of that feature, I've taught for decades that the thumb safety is not deactivated until you have a shoot decision. My preference is to do that when hands meet on the way to a shot. If the gun is to be deployed to a ready position (which is way over 99% of the time in actual street usage), then the safety stays on with thumb resting on top and the trigger finger is in register on the frame/slide above the trigger guard.

[JohnO]

I've taught for decades that the thumb safety is not deactivated until you have a shoot decision. My preference is to do that when hands meet on the way to a shot.

Yes. I agree.

The Ed Head Gunsite video linked above depicts the safety coming off a tad too early for me. It may only be a fraction of a second too early but I really like knowing that my support hand is safe before I disengage the safety.

A whole bunch of years ago I was in my basement practicing presentations. I was using a dry gun and a timer. I was doing a few then paring off a tenth rinse and repeat and trying to beat the buzzer. Somewhere down in the ludicrous zone 0.7ish I screwed up and got my support hand out in front of the muzzle and drove the muzzle into my palm. This never left my mind. Ever since that happened it became very important to not disengage a safety or prep the trigger until I know I am not muzzling my support hand.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Yes. I agree. (added .... With What Wayne Wrote)

The Ed Head Gunsite video linked above depicts the safety coming off a tad too early for me. It may only be a fraction of a second too early but I really like knowing that my support hand is safe before I disengage the safety.

The reason it is taught that way is the mechanical safety is only coming off because the decision to fire has been made and that is (generally) where one will shoot from if having to work out of the retention position. My "clear" and "rotate" take place higher up because my retention position is higher up. If drawing to the ready, regardless of which one, which indicates the decision to fire has not yet been made, the safety stays on until that decision is made and the pistol comes on the threat, target, etc.

Whether the support hand is flat on the torso or in contact with it and fingers entended (I see both), the muzzle rotating up should not be crossing ones fingers, hand. Have yet to see anyone ND into the fingers, hand at this point; yet, I just saw another guy who shot himself in the hand after disassembling his Glock.