Let's Talk Shotgun Training

[TCinVA]

A lot of generalizations about LE training that painted with a very wide brush.

Generalizations usually do.

Simple truth of the matter is that shotgun training in aggregate in LE is minimal at best. (In several departments I can name, it is outright non-existent) There are certainly pockets of competence and even excellence which is why I made specific reference to organizations like the ones in SOCAL who have done a lot of gunfighting taking shotgun training and deployment seriously. USBP has also taken the pains to maintain excellent shotgun training over the years and USBP guys I've talked to are big fans of what the weapon can do.

Organizations that shoot a lot of people with pistols pretty quickly figure out that pistols suck.

Also......slugs. Sorry, but if you work in an automotive based world, you are doing yourself a huge disservice in not knowing how to effectively utilize the best tool we have for dealing with felons in vehicles.

I mentioned that, too. Of course, most police departments are not running guns set up to really use slugs to their full potential and the departments that never really invested the time and effort into figuring out what the shotgun can really do for them are likely to be using soft lead foster slugs (that likely haven't really been tested thoroughly in each issued shotgun) which give somewhat less than optimal performance in and around vehicles compared with the performance of some of the better slugs for the task like Brenneke or Federal's recent TruBall deep penetrator slugs.

[StraitR]

The more I learn about shotguns, their deployment, and the results of their deployment, the more I realize I've been kidding myself about needing a suppressed carbine for my HD purposes.

Been focusing on getting a round in the chamber from C3 (bolt locked back/safety off) on my Benelli. Started off with slow and purposeful actions just to learn the movement. Certainly making progress, as I don't "think" about it now that the movement is known. That said, I really want and need to get into a class in the first half of '18, as this shotgun is still wildly unfamiliar compared to a carbine.

Questions.... I'm using 4 shot Esstac cards, brass up. I'm loading the chamber over the top then using my thumb to drop the bolt. It works, but it seems tedious with that little Benelli bolt release button (I'm trying not to change parts). Is this the best way? Due to the T2, I would much prefer to go brass down/load under as the bolt release is much easier to hit when I can mash multiple fingers against the receiver vs just the thumb when going over. But, I keep reading velcro cards aren't the best for brass down, so I'm trying to learn the right way the first time. Anything wrong with coming over the top, dropping in the shell, then sweeping the hand back against the charging handle to drop bolt? Seems a bit slower (just like on a handgun), but definitely more easily repeatable and takes much less concentration/focus for me. I have no issue doing this on my 1911's (or previous glocks), so is this just a matter of more reps? I don't like having to focus that hard on the gun and loosing focus the reason for loading it.

[TCinVA]

But, I keep reading velcro cards aren't the best for brass down, so I'm trying to learn the right way the first time. Anything wrong with coming over the top, dropping in the shell, then using the charging handle to drop bolt?

I'm sort of agnostic on how people get the gun into action. I have methods that I teach because I've done a lot of work to find what I think are efficient and effective methods that work well under a wide variety of conditions.

I carry my shells brass down because I've found that the Vang Comp velcro shell carrier is durable and reliably holds on to the shells even if you mag-dump a Beretta 1301 with magnum loads as fast as you can pull the trigger. Brass-down carry gives me the most efficient reloads.

I also demonstrate brass-up carry because I know many clients/students won't have that shell carrier and lots of shell carriers suck after a while. When I do brass-up carry I still prefer to go underneath on the 870 and semi-autos like the 1301 because I find I can hit the ejection port better coming from underneath than going over the top. When I go over the top I generally need to at least glance at the gun to get the shell in. When going underneath, it is rather nice that my hand is right there to use the bolt release on the semi-auto. I like to tell people to keep as much meat around the shell as possible so they don't go fumbling it when they try to reload the gun.

So, no, there's nothing wrong wth the method you are describing. But only use that method if it proves to be the method that works best for you. Don't get stuck in that methodology due to equipment when better equipment is available.

[GJM]

Craig, as you know, I carry a Benelli shotgun daily all summer. I carry it condition 3. However, what I do is fill the tube, but then hit the release so the slug is floated. This allows an empty chamber, but all you have to do is work the action to chamber a round. This strikes a balance for me between safety and speed.

[StraitR]

Thanks @TCinVA. I'll continue to experiment and work on manipulations. I'm basing my "brass down bad" on generalizations I've read. It wasn't written specifically towards the Esstac cards, so maybe I'll give it a whirl. I agree that loading under for everything is much easier for me, from dropping in the port to hitting the bolt release, all with only a quick glance which eliminates the need to hard focus on the gun. It feels more natural and intuitive.

Unfortunately, Vang doesn't make 4 shot cards, and I really don't want the weight and length of the 6 shot card.

Appreciate your input, in the whole thread actually.

[StraitR]

Craig, as you know, I carry a Benelli shotgun daily all summer. I carry it condition 3. However, what I do is fill the tube, but then hit the release so the slug is floated. This allows an empty chamber, but all you have to do is work the action to chamber a round. This strikes a balance for me between safety and speed.

That's for your input George. That certainly seems like the fastest way to get a Benelli into action from a C3 state. You leave the safety off, if I'm not mistaken?

[GJM]

That's for your input George. That certainly seems like the fastest way to get a Benelli into action from a C3 state. You leave the safety off, if I'm not mistaken?

Yes.

[SpyderMan2k4]

Regarding emergency loads, I've played with it quite a bit. I think of it more than having the gun pointed near the target vs actually having the sights on target the entire time- that's pretty much impossible to do with any kind of speed. I've long been of the opinion that if your gun is empty, just get rounds in the thing, even if it goes against some "conventional wisdom."

I don't typically like spamming my own stuff, but I think this video might help give a look at different options for emergency loads.

https://youtu.be/Km-uP9-Vr4g

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[GJM]

Touches on reloading:

http://blog.suarezinternational.com/...om-870-dm.html

[jlw]

The more I learn about shotguns, their deployment, and the results of their deployment, the more I realize I've been kidding myself about needing a suppressed carbine for my HD purposes.

Been focusing on getting a round in the chamber from C3 (bolt locked back/safety off) on my Benelli. Started off with slow and purposeful actions just to learn the movement. Certainly making progress, as I don't "think" about it now that the movement is known. That said, I really want and need to get into a class in the first half of '18, as this shotgun is still wildly unfamiliar compared to a carbine.

Questions.... I'm using 4 shot Esstac cards, brass up. I'm loading the chamber over the top then using my thumb to drop the bolt. It works, but it seems tedious with that little Benelli bolt release button (I'm trying not to change parts). Is this the best way? Due to the T2, I would much prefer to go brass down/load under as the bolt release is much easier to hit when I can mash multiple fingers against the receiver vs just the thumb when going over. But, I keep reading velcro cards aren't the best for brass down, so I'm trying to learn the right way the first time. Anything wrong with coming over the top, dropping in the shell, then sweeping the hand back against the charging handle to drop bolt? Seems a bit slower (just like on a handgun), but definitely more easily repeatable and takes much less concentration/focus for me. I have no issue doing this on my 1911's (or previous glocks), so is this just a matter of more reps? I don't like having to focus that hard on the gun and loosing focus the reason for loading it.

I use the same procedure as GJM posted in #124 although I am running with FliteControl rather than a slug. It's just a matter of working the bolt to chamber a round.

As for the cards, I had been running brass up for the first two rounds for emergency loads and brass down for the remaining rounds for speed loads. I took a class with Dagga Boy this summer, and he demonstrated a loading method with the brass up that will work for over the top, underneath, and speed loading. I'll try to shoot a video clip of it.