Lessons from 12,000 gunfights

[Lester Polfus]

Did you yell..."THIS IS SPARTA!" when you did it?

The heck with "eye poke in a can", I want "teep kick in a can".
The teep is my go to jab, (unless footing makes it risky).

No but it was the only time I actually froze up at work for a second or two. I actually said "Holy shit, I can't believe that happened" out loud.

[JodyH]

No but it was the only time I actually froze up at work for a second or two. I actually said "Holy shit, I can't believe that happened" out loud.

I remember a SWAT guy talking about kicking in a trailer house door and kicking straight through it and getting his leg stuck.
He too froze up and said holy shit, but for a different reason.

[octagon]

I consider the vast majority of LE (domestic and foreign) as well as most CCW's to be "untrained" or at best poorly trained in dynamic handgun fundamentals.

A few notes:
Night sights, WML's - If the data says they aren't needed yet you still have them on your pistol... it's a non-factor. There may not be any positives to having those things, but there aren't any negatives either.

Reload techniques - I've always considered putting a lot of effort into reload skills to be a waste of valuable training time. "The most important shot is the first hit, the most important magazine is the first one expended" has been my motto for years. Looks like my laziness when it comes to reload practice might actually be avante garde training!

Cover - Cover > concealment > wide open... it's always been that way, you take what you can get, when you can get it. And this is a great example of possibly coming to a bad conclusion based on successful outcomes. Just because a chip display worked as "cover" in a hundred gunfights doesn't mean utilizing a chip display as cover is the best or even a good tactic. A better tactic would be to use the chip display as transitionary concealment while continuing to move towards real cover.

Advancing and retreating as "movement" isn't taught by any legitimate instructors (it is however taught by many static line LE instructors, hence my lead comment that most LE are "untrained").

I'm not "ignoring reality".
What I am doing is separating the chaff from the wheat, and there's a lot of chaff when it comes to untrained people.
Like I said earlier, it's a good reminder that the fundamentals are the fundamentals for a reason. But I cannot remember ever learning some new and groundbreaking skill or tactic from watching hundreds of YouTube/LiveLeak gunfight videos.

Sounds like you got it all figured out. I'll end with my favorite quote from Tony Blauer "It doesn't matter what you think It matters what we see{in reality}"

[JodyH]

Sounds like you got it all figured out. I'll end with my favorite quote from Tony Blauer "It doesn't matter what you think It matters what we see{in reality}"

It's not a matter of "having it all figured out" it is a matter of knowing what is useful information and what isn't.
Successful outcomes (even in multiples) is not always proof that "X" is the superior tactic.

I compete in a lot of grappling/BJJ tournaments.
I really enjoy watching the white belts on the mat, it's entertainment and you can see how untrained people move and react.
I watch the blues and purples to see what works and what doesn't at my level.
I study the purple, brown and black belts when they compete because there are valuable lessons to be learned on how to advance my skill level.

[Cecil Burch]

Plus, that stuff takes several seconds at a minimum to take significant effect. Eye jabs are instantaneous, spray might take up to 30 seconds to soak in and cause significant pain. As a cop, it was spray and move. Let it marinate, take full effect and only then move in to control.

Of course. Just like an eye jab can miss. One failure does not supersede the other success. And I have seen eye jabs in the real world not take take immediate effect. in college, I had a frat guy eye jab me with a classic hard style karate eye jab. Caught me fairly flush. It did nothing to stop what I did after. Then, after the fight, I realized I could not see out of the left eye. The area around had swollen up pretty big. Stayed that way for a day or two. Annoying, but had no bearing on the fight. Nothing succeeds 100% against every opponent 100% of the time. That is why you have to train, as well as train to have other options.

Also, like an eye jab that only grazes someone, you don't need "full effect" of OC to take advantage of the momentary window to gain some distance or go to another strike/weapon.

[JodyH]

To expand on the takeaways from videos of untrained people.

If I watched a thousand WorldStar! fist fight videos my takeways would be that the keys to a win are: remove my shirt, lean back and windmill punch my way towards my opponent, once I'm in contact the "Hillbilly headlock" followed by bulldogging them to the ground and a sloppy Kesa Gatame with face punches is the best street fighting system ever.

I'd much rather watch 5 videos of a trained fighter (grappler, Judoka, BJJ, MMA, Muay Thai, boxer, NCAA wrestler whatever) in a street fight and dissect what went right and what went wrong because that's the information that most relevant to my training and skill level and closest to what skills and tactics I would actually attempt to utilize in a street fight.

Why would gun fight videos be any different?

A large volume of data does not equal a large volume of relevant data.

[1slow]

To expand on the takeaways from videos of untrained people.

If I watched a thousand WorldStar! fist fight videos my takeways would be that the keys to a win are: remove my shirt, lean back and windmill punch my way towards my opponent, once I'm in contact the "Hillbilly headlock" followed by bulldogging them to the ground and a sloppy Kesa Gatame with face punches is the best street fighting system ever.

I'd much rather watch 5 videos of a trained fighter (grappler, Judoka, BJJ, MMA, Muay Thai, boxer, NCAA wrestler whatever) in a street fight and dissect what went right and what went wrong because that's the information that most relevant to my training and skill level and closest to what skills and tactics I would actually attempt to utilize in a street fight.

Why would gun fight videos be any different?

A large volume of data does not equal a large volume of relevant data.

I agree, I think it was Tom Givens who said approximately " we need to study and train what the winners did, not what the losers did."

[JodyH]

I agree, I think it was Tom Givens who said approximately " we need to study and train what the winners did, not what the losers did."

Even more important, study what the winners and losers at your skill level and above did.
Train what worked and discard what didn't work or was irrelevant.

[1slow]

Also that may give you what worked against skilled opponents.

[JodyH]

Two scenarios, which would be better data for the people on this forum:

Scenario 1:
Store clerk sees the bad guy rush into the front doors with a mask on and waving a gun.
He ducks down below the counter, grabs his revolver and without looking fires 3 rounds over the counter "ghetto style".
The bad guy pulls up so fast he slips and falls, then does a high speed crab walk out the doors.
Good guy wins.

Scenario 2:
Mr. USPSA shooter is approached at an ATM by badguy demanding his wallet, whose left hand is in his hoodie pocket pointing either his finger or a gun at him and has his right hand extended waiting on the wallet handover.
USPSA guy goes for the one second draw to hit, but after 10,000 draw repetitions he subconsciously shoves the gun out to full extension where the muzzle gets diverted by the badguys extended right hand, the left hand comes out with a gun and Mr. USPSA guy gets popped in the grape by a .380 FMJ and he dies instantly.
Good guy loses.