Lessons from 12,000 gunfights

[David S.]

Nice write up, Karl.

I really wish that presentation was recorded.

[blues]

Nice write up, Karl.

I really wish that presentation was recorded.

Totally agree. (Plus I'd like to have seen what that guy who had the 12,000 gunfights looked like. )

[1Rangemaster]

Back to Mr. Rehn and his website(Krtraining)
He has a “3 seconds” COF that I took a swing at with a new 19 today. Concealed TENICOR ARX holster(under down jacket). The course doesn’t require a reload and is several strings(total=20 rounds) @3&7 yards. The ARX holster is excellent in this context.
Shot on an IDPA target, audible start. I shanked one a tad high at 7 with shooting hand only, but that was a lapse of concentration on my part. Recommended! (And I’ll give it another shot). Compliments to Mr .Rehn.

[BehindBlueI's]

I had to read it a few times and noodle it over. I think we're misreading his post.

BBI is not saying that pepper spray is useless in defensive scenarios. I think he's saying that pepper spray is useful in the MUC (as Southnarc would call it) phase of a defensive conflict. . . and that's what it's designed for. Once the conflict goes hands-on (assault), pepper spray looses it's usefulness.

In practice, it's not worked well. Distances are too close, deployment too slow, effects to unreliable, and very few practice. They end up with a fight on their hands and getting the same effects themselves.

Things can change a bit with a barrier, like a tall counter, but I'm not impressed with the track record of OC among the general population.

[Clusterfrack]

Deleted.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

In practice, it's not worked well. Distances are too close, deployment too slow, effects to unreliable, and very few practice. They end up with a fight on their hands and getting the same effects themselves.

Things can change a bit with a barrier, like a tall counter, but I'm not impressed with the track record of OC among the general population.

Understood! You and your general population studies!

I’ve used it, but of course I’ve trained with it too.


civiliandefender.com

[Lester Polfus]

In practice, it's not worked well. Distances are too close, deployment too slow, effects to unreliable, and very few practice. They end up with a fight on their hands and getting the same effects themselves.

Things can change a bit with a barrier, like a tall counter, but I'm not impressed with the track record of OC among the general population.

I agree. I don't have the number of data points I think you do, but the handful of times I've seen it deployed, the deployer still wound up hands on with the deployee. Sometimes the deployee can't see, which can be a bonus, but if they can get their mitts on you, they can still fuck you up.

[BehindBlueI's]

I agree. I don't have the number of data points I think you do, but the handful of times I've seen it deployed, the deployer still wound up hands on with the deployee. Sometimes the deployee can't see, which can be a bonus, but if they can get their mitts on you, they can still fuck you up.

In both training and IRL, the folks who've used OC without needing to also go hands on either had a barricade or outran the opponent.

When I was stupider, I would be the "attacker" in women's safety classes. I would do something like a Tueller drill and they could have their OC in their hand. As soon as I started to move, they could spray me with their OC (for real, not inert...I said I was stupider). Getting sprayed 5 times in one day does kind of suck, but few really got me good in the face. I didn't try to dodge, just came straight at them. When one did get me, I was still on them before I really felt the burn. The ones who out ran me would have out ran me without the spray.

And that's one of my issues with OC, false confidence. The women would just stand there expecting me to grab my face and roll around on the ground. Real events have been similar. Like Lester said, you end up fighting anyway and then it's on you as well. Which is another issue, now you're also having the same impairment, more or less, as your opponent. Something that bothers us both isn't helping me win. One of the worst beatings I ever responded to was a guy who sprayed an aggressive panhandler. It pissed the panhandler off, which scared the sprayer as he was pounced on and beaten...then the panhandler went and took a nap next to the dumpster at the nearby Mexican restaurant where we found him...smelling of booze and pepper spray.

Then, where do you carry it that's quick enough to deploy to matter? With a flashlight, tourniquet, pistol, etc. etc....

IF you are trained and IF you understand the limitations and IF you want to bother to carry it, knock yourself out. A general "consider OC/CS spray" type statement is setting folks up for failure, though, IMO.

OC is for non-compliance. Well, also for area denial but I'm not sure that translates well.

[Notorious E.O.C.]

IF you are trained and IF you understand the limitations and IF you want to bother to carry it, knock yourself out. A general "consider OC/CS spray" type statement is setting folks up for failure, though, IMO.

OC is for non-compliance. Well, also for area denial but I'm not sure that translates well.

Been meaning to ask this... who offers OC training to civilians? I've never seen an open-enrollment class advertised.

[Duelist]

In both training and IRL, the folks who've used OC without needing to also go hands on either had a barricade or outran the opponent.

When I was stupider, I would be the "attacker" in women's safety classes. I would do something like a Tueller drill and they could have their OC in their hand. As soon as I started to move, they could spray me with their OC (for real, not inert...I said I was stupider). Getting sprayed 5 times in one day does kind of suck, but few really got me good in the face. I didn't try to dodge, just came straight at them. When one did get me, I was still on them before I really felt the burn. The ones who out ran me would have out ran me without the spray.

And that's one of my issues with OC, false confidence. The women would just stand there expecting me to grab my face and roll around on the ground. Real events have been similar. Like Lester said, you end up fighting anyway and then it's on you as well. Which is another issue, now you're also having the same impairment, more or less, as your opponent. Something that bothers us both isn't helping me win. One of the worst beatings I ever responded to was a guy who sprayed an aggressive panhandler. It pissed the panhandler off, which scared the sprayer as he was pounced on and beaten...then the panhandler went and took a nap next to the dumpster at the nearby Mexican restaurant where we found him...smelling of booze and pepper spray.

Then, where do you carry it that's quick enough to deploy to matter? With a flashlight, tourniquet, pistol, etc. etc....

IF you are trained and IF you understand the limitations and IF you want to bother to carry it, knock yourself out. A general "consider OC/CS spray" type statement is setting folks up for failure, though, IMO.

OC is for non-compliance. Well, also for area denial but I'm not sure that translates well.

Definitely food for thought.