US Army fields SIG M17 and M18 pistols

[JRB]

Many soldiers are astonished to learn that there is no Army reg that mandates wearing full "battle rattle" on the range.
Unit standards, yes, but no AR.

Correct. Commanders discretion. I've fought that battle multiple times. I get tired of hearing "train like we fight!" Zeroing is not training. Qualifying is not training. Very few can figure out the difference.

Thanks for that, I didn't know. I was former Air Force enlisted as an Army Guard tanker, so I thought "everybody" did it that way because it just seemed like the gospel throughout my battalion.

As a tanker, we were issued an M9. When we shot, we were in full battle rattle. When we deployed stateside toting M-16's and had to qualify, we were in full battle rattle. I was under the impression that was always how the Army did it, until I read Drang's post.

I am sorry for continuing the thread drift. GreggW - I would be curious to learn more about the factual basis for your comments about the Guard and Reserve units ammunition usage and how they train. There are 54 states and territories with National Guard and Reserve units so your statement seems to be a fairly broad brush. Maybe this should be a separate thread.

Guard and Reserve units very frequently use 'full battle rattle' when conducting a zero or qual range because an IBA/IOTV + ACH is an easy 'control' to implement to reduce the overall risk 'rating' on a DRAW/formal risk assessment.

So while SNCO's might be barking the worn-out 'train as we fight' nonsense, the simple truth is that some O3's and O4's wanted the range event approved and signed off by the O6/O7 responsible, and that Colonel or General made it clear that they wouldn't sign off on any DRAW that didn't involve wearing full battle rattle.

Forecasting ammo is a fickle thing and frequently depends on the Brigade (O6/Colonel level) and higher. Frequently they will harp on about shortages and lack of funding etc all through the entire Fiscal Year, only to freak out and go into a spending spree around mid-August.

As for the profound absence of *actual* training with handguns in the Army - at least those joes are pointing the damn thing in a safe direction. It's amazing how easily even NCO and SNCO's in the Reserve/Guard that have no other exposure or practice to rifles throughout the year can profoundly and terrifyingly mis-handle a 20in M16, let alone an M9.

[JSGlock34]

I was interested to see statements from the 101st Master Gunner (SFC Flynn) that pistols will be issued to fire team leaders. According to the linked article, that's the Army wide plan.

“This weapon is going to go down to the team leader, which is not what we typically have in the 101st or across most light divisions,” 10st master gunner Sgt. 1st Class Andrew Flynn told Military.com. “We are putting this weapon into the hands of a lot of younger soldiers who have never fired it.”

In a first, the Army’s new handgun will be issued to team leaders

[Drang]

I believe that Pershing's intention in WWI was to issue every infantryman a pistol. (Can't remember the source.) It took a long time to train the Doughboys up to the point that they were up to trench duty (not to mention assaulting across No Man's land) but the AEF took advantage and spent a lot of time analyzing what at the time were not referred to as "Real World" conditions.

That's why there are so many M1917 revolvers around, there was no way to produce enough 1911s. The 1917 Alvin York used when he captured "the whole damned German army" was issued to him.

[JSGlock34]

The 1917 Alvin York used?

[holmes168]

The headlines should be saying- "Army fielding new pistols that will not be trained on, but will collect dust for the remainder of the decade."

Color me unimpressed.

[Mas]

In fairness to Drang, I believe he was talking about the 1917 Enfield Rifle most historians agree Alvin York used, issued because there weren't enough Springfield 1903s to go around. Exactly the same as the 1917 Colt and S&W .45 ACP revolvers issued because there weren't enough 1911 .45 autos to go around.

[ranger]

The headlines should be saying- "Army fielding new pistols that will not be trained on, but will collect dust for the remainder of the decade."

Color me unimpressed.

I carried a M9 every day for approximately one year in Iraq. My State commonly allowed our company sized units to "dual carry" when they deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan. The pistols may not have been carried by USPSA GMs but in fact they did get very dusty at times.

[LockedBreech]

In fairness to Drang, I believe he was talking about the 1917 Enfield Rifle most historians agree Alvin York used, issued because there weren't enough Springfield 1903s to go around. Exactly the same as the 1917 Colt and S&W .45 ACP revolvers issued because there weren't enough 1911 .45 autos to go around.

Bit of thread drift, but I bought Bruce Canfield's U.S Infantry Weapons of World War II based on the forum's advice and it was some of the best $40 I ever spent. Plugging it here, no affiliation to the author or profits gained. If you love WW2, history, guns, and good thorough research by subject matter experts it's a delightful book.


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[Drang]

In fairness to Drang, I believe he was talking about the 1917 Enfield Rifle most historians agree Alvin York used, issued because there weren't enough Springfield 1903s to go around. Exactly the same as the 1917 Colt and S&W .45 ACP revolvers issued because there weren't enough 1911 .45 autos to go around.

I believe he also had a 1917 revolver, although I could be wrong about that. I know they gave Gary Cooper a Luger in the movie, but that's supposed to be because because they had 9mm blanks...

[GardoneVT]

"[The Beretta 92s] pretty dated technology,” Lt. Col. Steven Power, individual weapons product manager for Project Manager Soldier Weapons.

Someone should remind the partial bird Colonel how old the M4 is.