AR15 pistol with arm brace for dealing with an active shooter inside a church

[Hambo]

I would prefer a SBR over an AR pistol, and an M4 to an SBR, but that's just me. Any reliable .223 should get the job done.

More than rifle/carbine/pistol type I would work on getting as realistic training as possible for those tasked with gunfighting in a crowded venue.

[Casual Friday]

I feel like the small rifle is still limiting.

Why not a standard AR in a guitar case? Or 14.5 in barrel in a long Sneaky bag/tennis racket bag?

Would you want the dude with the rifle in the pews or in the entrance or the door to the nursery or on the bench outside?

Just asking questions, I got no answers.

Our church is very similar to the church in TX that was shot up, small, rural, everyone knows each other by first name etc. Everyone knows I don't play guitar or tennis so a guitar case or tennis racket bag will stick out like a sore thumb. For carrying purposes it has to be a pistol.

Would an accurate pistol or revolver with red dot and/or laser have potential for the task?

I tend to think in terms of revolvers for accuracy for some reason, like a 4" or 6" 357 with red dot. Would fit under a suit jacket OK in the right holster.

We're looking for a long gun solution, several of us already carry pistols.

[Casual Friday]

I would prefer a SBR over an AR pistol, and an M4 to an SBR, but that's just me. Any reliable .223 should get the job done.

More than rifle/carbine/pistol type I would work on getting as realistic training as possible for those tasked with gunfighting in a crowded venue.

With the brace there really is no downside to going with the pistol over a SBR. I can build a AR pistol by the weekend if I needed to, the SBR would be months and months since in WA we can't do the home built SBR, they have to be a factory built gun.

Training is a priority.

[Casual Friday]

Would you want the dude with the rifle in the pews or in the entrance or the door to the nursery or on the bench outside?

Just asking questions, I got no answers.

Missed this question when I replied the first time.

One real nice thing is our church already has a very good camera system. We had some vehicle break ins and vandalism and that's what led to us getting the security system and cameras in place. We take turns sitting in the office during services and monitoring them while listening to the service through a speaker. The side and back exits remain locked during services. Our church is out in the country, and we see our fair share of wandering miscreants. They're welcome to come, as long as they behave. The people who carry at church are kinda spread out through the crowd.

[Beat Trash]

I would not want to leave any firearm unattended during church services, so an SBR or an AR pistol in a bag or pack is probably the preferred option. If an incident were to occur, my preferred option would be a full size AR. But the reality is that life is about compromise. So an AR Pistol or an SBR would be the way to go.

Unless you are willing to go with a 300 Blk, then I wouldn't want to go less than a 10.3" barrel. Preferably a 11.5" barrel. Keep a spare 30 rd magazine that can get shoved into an off side pants pocket and go forth. I have no experience with the latest generation of the Law Tactical folder. Yet. But I'm seriously considering trying one out with a pistol build. I would be curious to hear of any feedback on higher round usage of one and how it holds up.

Many of the needs discussed here could also apply to a person looking for a gun to be carried when away from home on a business trip or a vacation trip.

If you could get two guys to commit then I would also address the tactics to be used. I would want other guys who would be responsible for responding to minor issues like drunk/stupid ex-spouse who's only there to cause a scene. I would not want the heavily armed members drawn/suckered into something that would prevent them from being where they need to be.

I would want a lot of pre-planning on the placement of these two guys within the church during services and the tactics deployed. Non-AR pistol toting members of the security team need to be involved and aware also. The choice of weapons are important. As important is the appropriate tactics and some pre-planning so as to be able to quickly and effectively address an active shooter.

I would also consider having the church create a couple of trauma bags filled with stuff to stop bleeding until emergency services arrive. Some TQ's and bandages, ect. Stash a couple of trauma bags at different locations that are known to enough members so they can be retrieved quickly if needed. Doesn't have to be high speed. I've made bags for each personal car we own, using a quart Zip-Lok bag as the "trauma bag".

[Glenn E. Meyer]

While I am a place of worship holiday attendee mostly, it's in a large institution that's crowded on those days. My thoughts, worth what you paid for it, are time to deploy as compared to time to deploy a handgun. If you are 'tactically' placed in the congregation or somewhere in the back - how fast can you do this?

There will be panic and crowds ducking and screaming and running and being clueless, etc. Do other members who might be concealed types know that you are the good guy with the EBR?

I might suggest that this be tested in a quality FOF with some airsoft EBR clones. I'm just concerned with futzing around the case and the gun as shots are raining down. Even slow pokes like me are hitting 6 close up folks in 3 seconds or so.

Get a reasonable set of folks to sit in the house of worship (if the priest, pastor, rabbi, iman, etc. goes along). Have one person who is unknown have a airsoft something under a jacket. You and the team are place wherever. Bad guy jumps up and let the exercise run.

[Grey]

With the brace there really is no downside to going with the pistol over a SBR. I can build a AR pistol by the weekend if I needed to, the SBR would be months and months since in WA we can't do the home built SBR, they have to be a factory built gun.

Training is a priority.

With the current state of the ATF there is No reason to go with an SBR, pistol with brace is far better for your application.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[Casual Friday]

I would not want to leave any firearm unattended during church services, so an SBR or an AR pistol in a bag or pack is probably the preferred option. If an incident were to occur, my preferred option would be a full size AR. But the reality is that life is about compromise. So an AR Pistol or an SBR would be the way to go.

Unless you are willing to go with a 300 Blk, then I wouldn't want to go less than a 10.3" barrel. Preferably a 11.5" barrel. Keep a spare 30 rd magazine that can get shoved into an off side pants pocket and go forth. I have no experience with the latest generation of the Law Tactical folder. Yet. But I'm seriously considering trying one out with a pistol build. I would be curious to hear of any feedback on higher round usage of one and how it holds up.

Many of the needs discussed here could also apply to a person looking for a gun to be carried when away from home on a business trip or a vacation trip.

If you could get two guys to commit then I would also address the tactics to be used. I would want other guys who would be responsible for responding to minor issues like drunk/stupid ex-spouse who's only there to cause a scene. I would not want the heavily armed members drawn/suckered into something that would prevent them from being where they need to be.

I would want a lot of pre-planning on the placement of these two guys within the church during services and the tactics deployed. Non-AR pistol toting members of the security team need to be involved and aware also. The choice of weapons are important. As important is the appropriate tactics and some pre-planning so as to be able to quickly and effectively address an active shooter.

I would also consider having the church create a couple of trauma bags filled with stuff to stop bleeding until emergency services arrive. Some TQ's and bandages, ect. Stash a couple of trauma bags at different locations that are known to enough members so they can be retrieved quickly if needed. Doesn't have to be high speed. I've made bags for each personal car we own, using a quart Zip-Lok bag as the "trauma bag".

Excellent post, thank you.

While I am a place of worship holiday attendee mostly, it's in a large institution that's crowded on those days. My thoughts, worth what you paid for it, are time to deploy as compared to time to deploy a handgun. If you are 'tactically' placed in the congregation or somewhere in the back - how fast can you do this?

There will be panic and crowds ducking and screaming and running and being clueless, etc. Do other members who might be concealed types know that you are the good guy with the EBR?

I might suggest that this be tested in a quality FOF with some airsoft EBR clones. I'm just concerned with futzing around the case and the gun as shots are raining down. Even slow pokes like me are hitting 6 close up folks in 3 seconds or so.

Get a reasonable set of folks to sit in the house of worship (if the priest, pastor, rabbi, iman, etc. goes along). Have one person who is unknown have a airsoft something under a jacket. You and the team are place wherever. Bad guy jumps up and let the exercise run.

I mentioned earlier that this is a small church, everyone knows me. Most of the congregation knows that myself and others carry pistols. We've had meetings with the entire church body to discuss safety measures. I realize that there is no perfect approach here.

[Beat Trash]

It's true that there is no perfect approach to protect your church against these types of threats. But I was once told, "Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance..."

The fact that your church is willing to address this issue puts you ahead of the bell curve over many churches currently.

[lwt16]

Get a reasonable set of folks to sit in the house of worship (if the priest, pastor, rabbi, iman, etc. goes along). Have one person who is unknown have a airsoft something under a jacket. You and the team are place wherever. Bad guy jumps up and let the exercise run.

Just to add some safety, make durn sure that EVERYONE knows that this is just a scenario. Have signage up on doors, double and triple check that everyone involved knows that its playtime and not for real. Have a moderator or two that call the scenario in play and when it's over. Notify your local 911 center that you will be conducting a drill and to not come in shooting down the "bad" guy for real.

I run these types of scenarios at my church and we take a whole lot of extra precautions to keep someone from happening up on the game in play and filling the bad guy (usually, your's truly) with lead. I even wear my duty kevlar just in case someone reacts accordingly.

All members in attendance must "de-gun and de-knife" at the outset.

It's all fun and games until someone's eye gets poked out.

We have debated the long gun aspect. We aren't there yet. Our longest sanctuary shot would be 70 plus yards. Challenging to most at a peaceful gun target range......real difficult in the heat of a panic.

Make sure some of your scenarios are "no shoots" just to keep it real. Make sure everyone is up to speed on use of force laws in your area. Make sure everyone watches. We get the entire team in a room and then run four at a time. Those four go outside and are directed by radio only....they have no clue what they are getting into.

Could be active shooter, could be a medical, could be a guy with an open carry pistol, could be a guy with a grenade. I mix it up, we game it, then we discuss. Then four different folks get to play and it's something different. Lets everyone see every scenario and goes faster....you can get multiple scenarios in quicker time.

Having the rest of the team watching puts anxiety on the four "players". Gets their heart rates up. Nice and high.

Discuss it afterwards....look for civil liability dangers. Look for breaks in the plan......

Look for your weaknesses.