Precision Delta, .38 wadcutters

[WDR]

Anybody else have leading with these?

I bought some of the HBWC component bullets, to reload myself, and I have indeed seen some leading, but not so bad I was concerned about it. If you are coming from a background of mostly auto pistol rounds and jacketed bullets, I could see how it might be alarming. I didn't notice much difference in leading between some older Winchester WC, some current production Remington (filthy stuff, powder wise, yuck), and my own W231/PD WC hand loads in new Starline brass, for whatever that is worth. I think its pretty standard for soft swaged wadcutters to leave lead behind in bores and cylinders... but I didn't grow up shooting revolvers during their heyday either.

Part of my problem, I think, is that I mistakenly ordered the .357" sized "match lube" version, instead of the standard .358" bullets, thinking I was saving myself some mess with the "dry" match lube. The .357" sized bullets are intended for tight bore PPC match guns, and not stock J-frame snubby bores. I didn't realize the difference in sizing until it was too late. Undersized bullets, particularly with soft swaged lead, are more likely to lead things up.

All this said, the accuracy I've had with the PD HBWC has been damn good, IMHO. And I really like the idea of a concave face to the bullet, if I ever had to press them into defensive service, and the PD bullets do have this shape. I'm not convinced they will make a better wound than a flat faced or button nosed WC, but it just seems logical that they would "bite and cut" better than a square shoulder or beveled shoulder, like that found on most DEWC bullets.

I have been debating what WC bullets to try next since the PD ones I bought are almost shot up, and will likely buy some Acme or Bayou coated ones, to try to reduce leading, and lead exposure while reloading.

[Spartan1980]

A sample of one, but I've had really good luck with the Hornady 147 HBWC. I've seen no leading at all in several different guns, which surprised me. I'm using WST powder which is a really good powder for lead bullets in moderate to light loads.

[willie]

I bought some of the HBWC component bullets, to reload myself, and I have indeed seen some leading, but not so bad I was concerned about it. If you are coming from a background of mostly auto pistol rounds and jacketed bullets, I could see how it might be alarming. I didn't notice much difference in leading between some older Winchester WC, some current production Remington (filthy stuff, powder wise, yuck), and my own W231/PD WC hand loads in new Starline brass, for whatever that is worth. I think its pretty standard for soft swaged wadcutters to leave lead behind in bores and cylinders... but I didn't grow up shooting revolvers during their heyday either.

Part of my problem, I think, is that I mistakenly ordered the .357" sized "match lube" version, instead of the standard .358" bullets, thinking I was saving myself some mess with the "dry" match lube. The .357" sized bullets are intended for tight bore PPC match guns, and not stock J-frame snubby bores. I didn't realize the difference in sizing until it was too late. Undersized bullets, particularly with soft swaged lead, are more likely to lead things up.

All this said, the accuracy I've had with the PD HBWC has been damn good, IMHO. And I really like the idea of a concave face to the bullet, if I ever had to press them into defensive service, and the PD bullets do have this shape. I'm not convinced they will make a better wound than a flat faced or button nosed WC, but it just seems logical that they would "bite and cut" better than a square shoulder or beveled shoulder, like that found on most DEWC bullets.

I have been debating what WC bullets to try next since the PD ones I bought are almost shot up, and will likely buy some Acme or Bayou coated ones, to try to reduce leading, and lead exposure while reloading.

Years ago I had a custom expander made to resolve leading issues with wadcutter bullets. Today you can buy a custom expander from Buffalo Arms. http://www.buffaloarms.com

[OlongJohnson]

Someone else asked if I've contacted PD. I did, and have received no response to date.

Its likely a sizing issue. Have you slugged your bore yet and take some measurements?

Haven't slugged bores. Throats (cleaned of lead etc.) are .359 on the 640-1 and .358 on the GP, passing ZZ- gage pins of the stated size.

Should be big enough to not cause problems with the bullets being sized down smaller than the grooves. In any case, these are hollow base wadcutters, so the bottoms of them should expand, making them less susceptible to that issue. And that wouldn't explain why they are leading in the chambers before the throats, as well as severely in the throats.

Might make sense if the bullets are significantly undersized. There could be charge peeling lead off the outside as the leading surfaces are engraving, etc. There was molten lead on the face of the cylinder and under the top strap of the GP, which would be consistent with escaping charge picking it up off the skirts while the front was engraving. There wasn't any lead I could see much past the threaded part of the barrel, so if the skirts did obturate and seal during/after engraving, that might explain what's going on. Willie's post would make some sense in this context.

I could dive down this rabbit hole and play with lubes like the guys over on castboolits, or I could just buy cheap jacketed factory ammo and spend my time doing my job and other things I can't find a way to get done without taking on new technical challenges.

ETA: Just checked the PD web site, and the bullets are described as .357 diameter. Which is weird. All the reading I've done says you want unjacketed bullets to be ~0.001 larger than groove diameter and the throat diameters to match that. Typically, this nominally means something along the lines of a 0.357 diameter groove gets a .358 bullet/throat. Are PPC guns built with custom barrels having .356 grooves? Hornady's swaged lead bullets are all listed at .358. I have a box, might have to load them up in some other cases.

Consider this an offer to anyone in (better yet, passing through) the Houston area - I'll give you a case and a half of this problem if you want it. You just have to promise not to complain or try to give it back.

[willie]

Someone else asked if I've contacted PD. I did, and have received no response to date.



Haven't slugged bores. Throats (cleaned of lead etc.) are .359 on the 640-1 and .358 on the GP, passing ZZ- gage pins of the stated size.

Should be big enough to not cause problems with the bullets being sized down smaller than the grooves. In any case, these are hollow base wadcutters, so the bottoms of them should expand, making them less susceptible to that issue. And that wouldn't explain why they are leading in the chambers before the throats, as well as severely in the throats.

Might make sense if the bullets are significantly undersized. There could be charge peeling lead off the outside as the leading surfaces are engraving, etc. There was molten lead on the face of the cylinder and under the top strap of the GP, which would be consistent with escaping charge picking it up off the skirts while the front was engraving. There wasn't any lead I could see much past the threaded part of the barrel, so if the skirts did obturate and seal during/after engraving, that might explain what's going on. Willie's post would make some sense in this context.

I could dive down this rabbit hole and play with lubes like the guys over on castboolits, or I could just buy cheap jacketed factory ammo and spend my time doing my job and other things I can't find a way to get done without taking on new technical challenges.

ETA: Just checked the PD web site, and the bullets are described as .357 diameter. Which is weird. All the reading I've done says you want unjacketed bullets to be ~0.001 larger than groove diameter and the throat diameters to match that. Typically, this nominally means something along the lines of a 0.357 diameter groove gets a .358 bullet/throat. Are PPC guns built with custom barrels having .356 grooves? Hornady's swaged lead bullets are all listed at .358. I have a box, might have to load them up in some other cases.

Consider this an offer to anyone in (better yet, passing through) the Houston area - I'll give you a case and a half of this problem if you want it. You just have to promise not to complain or try to give it back.

You are perplexed that you have examples of .357 diameter lead bullets when best practice verifies that the diameter should be at least .358. The reason is that the manufacturer arbitrarily decided to produce .357 bullets. No other reason. So what diameter is a custom barrel? It may be .357 or .358, but the .359 example could show up. The famous Colt Python and Colt Officer Model target revolvers had .356 bores. Extreme leading is occurring because the case itself is not being expanded far enough down. A negative outcome is that the undersized case is sizing down the soft lead bullet. You might think that the hollow base of hollow base wadcutter would size down but then expand back up upon firing. However if the cases are on the thick end of the scale, and if the expander is too short and undersized to start with, the result is a distorted bullet. Hot gas is flowing past the base. The result is leading.

See custom expanders from Buffalo Arms. If you are using Dillon equipment, a custom powder funnel can be made for wadcutter bullets.

[OlongJohnson]

I bought these as loaded ammo (reman cases) from PD.

It’s perplexing that I’m having problems that are predictable once understood, but I seem to be the only one either noticing or having the opinion that it’s a problem. All the other reviews I find are positive. Not the first time for that, unfortunately.

[SAWBONES]

I have both Precision Delta's reloads and premium .38 Special 148gr lead wadcutters, and find that they shoot to the same POA. They're somewhat smokey, like all lead-bulleted loads, but no worse than others in that respect.

Leading?
Sure, some, but again, nothing unusual IME compared to other non-hardcast lead bullets, whether WC, SWC or LSWCHP from Winchester, Remington and Buffalo Bore.

(In my case all Precision Delta WC loads have been shot only in snubbys of barrel length 1 7/8" to 3" length.)

[OlongJohnson]

The 640-1 is a snubby J, all stainless chambered for .357M.

The GP is the Match Champion with 4.2-inch barrel. None of the lead I took out of either of them was very far past the threaded portion, at least after the first pass with Chore Boy.

I remembered that I bought a .3585 ZZ- pin over the winter (don't keep it in the set case). Checked the throats on the GP this morning, and it passes easily with no or just a little drag in all six. The .359 did not enter.

[willie]

Precision Delta has a good reputation. Have you considered contacting them? I bet that a friendly phone call would result in their replacing the ammo.

[Jamie]

I have been debating what WC bullets to try next since the PD ones I bought are almost shot up, and will likely buy some Acme or Bayou coated ones, to try to reduce leading, and lead exposure while reloading.

A couple of friends and myself cast and powder coat our own .38 and 9mm bullets, but I have excellent results using Rainier 148 gr DEWC bullets for at least the past 15 years.
I load the Rainier bullets with AA#2, W231 and Titegroup. My preference is AA#2 for these rounds.

The Rainier 148 gr DEWC's are still available at Midway. I picked up another 1000 round box a couple of months ago and they are still on sale for $72.57.

If a person handloads these, and powder coated bullets (I can only speak to my own), certainly removed any leading concerns.