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Thread: Support Hand Still Slipping Forward

  1. #31
    I found Rob Leatham's video on having a subtle push/pull to be helpful.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xNNlb7QjfGI

    For me the pinch between my hands happens toward the base of my shooting hand thumb.

    Jamautry, the analogy to twisting on/off a jar lid can be a useful description. I may have to steal that one!

  2. #32
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    I place my support hand lower on the grip than what you typically see in Youtube vids/forum pictures (I don't have many friends who shoot, and none who shoot seriously. So I'm kinda in my own bubble here--bear with me). You might try that?

    I have very small hands, and I simply cannot exert any pressure with my support hand if it's hiked up, and cocked down (as modern technique suggests). Placing the hand lower lets me generate a lot more lateral force--especially on a shorter grip, where I can index the heel against the bottom edge of the grip. 92 compact (Wilson grips) works best for my hand size and technique. PX4c and a Smith 69XX are both close seconds.

    Maybe formal instruction would change my approach... but that's what I've found gives me the tightest groups and most recoil control.

  3. #33
    You need more or increased rearward pressure with the support hand. This can be done physically in an isometric type of way, or it can be done mechanically in how you set the "lock" with the support hands index finger and the way in which the support hand grips the pistol. Either your support shoulder and arm can accomplish this like Leatham, or the lock of your support hand grip can get it done as in Vogel.

    Vogel's grip. Guys who "lock" the support hands index finger onto the trigger guard tend to create a mechancial type of lock whereas a tightening of the grip creates a much more effective jar lid effect, and in turn creates a push-pull effect within the support hand itself, ie Vogel.

    Those who use a grip like Rob Leatham who has stacked index fingers rely more on iso-tension in that this type of grip uses a bit more iso or push-pull pressure that is generated by the shoulders into the arm and hand. It isn't a true ISO push-pull as in a Chapman, but a slight rearward pull to keep the hands locked or in contact. Of course the hands maintain grip pressure by the clamping action of the hand, but it isn't as strong as locking onto the trigger guard. They make up for this by the assisted and slight rearward pull of the support hand. It is a slightly different approach then Vogel's grip as Vogel attempts to use both hands to push forward on the pistol. Vogel uses no rearward pull of the arms, but forward push and he relies on his hands to stay locked onto the gun. As mentioned he has incredible grip strength to pull this off.

    Most people are probably better off at least initially with a Leatham type of grip and as they get better in technique or grip strength they may start adapting, or not. It is pretty obvious that both methods can make you a world champion. No matter which you use, be sure that the first point of contact with the support hand is with the support hands index finger under the trigger guard and then backfill the grip panel with the palm swell of your support hand. If you place the support hand palm swell on the grip first and then wrap your fingers you will have a weaker grip, no matter which technique you use.

    ETA - I tend to see guys who have longer, slimmer fingers with great grip strength pull of the Vogel technique well as experienced shooters, but they often migrate into this grip with experience. Guys with shorter, maybe fatter fingers, no matter the grip strength often have a hard time, reach wise, doing the Vogel grip. I would say Vogel's grip is pretty advanced and as GJM mentions, pretty much works well for fewer people.
    Last edited by Surf; 12-13-2017 at 04:42 PM.

  4. #34
    A red dot is a great diagnostic tool, because of how it moves as you press the trigger and the gun recoils, giving you all sorts of feedback as to how well you are gripping the gun.

    There is a lot of variation in hand size and strength, technique used and gun weight/caliber/recoil impulse. At the end of the day, there is no one size fits all method, and you have to just do the work, and figure out what is best for you. That will likely continue to evolve. The good news is you can shoot A’s all day even with a crappy grip.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    A red dot is a great diagnostic tool, because of how it moves as you press the trigger and the gun recoils, giving you all sorts of feedback as to how well you are gripping the gun.

    There is a lot of variation in hand size and strength, technique used and gun weight/caliber/recoil impulse. At the end of the day, there is no one size fits all method, and you have to just do the work, and figure out what is best for you. That will likely continue to evolve. The good news is you can shoot A’s all day even with a crappy grip.
    Couldnt agree more about the RDS being a diagnostic tool. It helped me tremendously on my presentation and trigger press during dryfire.
    Just a father trying to protect his family.

  6. #36
    Site Supporter Rex G's Avatar
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    Interesting reading; thanks to all, for contributing. I am having to change my gripping of pistols, due to worsening chronic ailments on the right side, and more acute, but hopefully heal-able injuries on the left side. Every technique, every tweak of each technique, every suggestion, and every piece of advice, is on the table. (Thankfully, I have a nice .22LR S&W Model 17, for low-recoil training.)

  7. #37
    Member randyflycaster's Avatar
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    I tried both techniques: the push/slightly pull and the tightening/loosening a jar lid. I shot somewhat better with the latter, but I will again try both techniques. The bottom line: my hand didn't slip off the gun.

    Randy

  8. #38
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    This is a bit tangential but I didn't want to open up an entire new thread for such a small detail...

    Re: support hand, I have fairly small hands, and shoot 9mm glocks primarily. In the past my support hand has primarily felt like it is providing pressure on top of the strong hand, with the support hand fingers hooking over my strong hand knuckles, and leaving a pretty big callous on my strong hand ring finger knuckle. On the other side the base of my thumb has been obviously contacting the pistol, but a lot of the pressure has been applied to the fingers of my strong hand that have wrapped around the grip.

    During recent dry fire I found support hand grip wanting to change, and exert most of the pressure against the left side of the grip, and on the other side with my index and especially middle finger applying a lot of pressure laterally to the underside right edge of the trigger guard. Is this a good, bad, or indifferent thing? Haven't had a chance to try it out in live fire yet, wondering how much to try to practice it. It seems like it might be a tiny bit better and also a bit less impacted by sweaty hands.

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