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Thread: 357 Sig question

  1. #61
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    Nothing is a sure thing 100% of the time. As the FBI report from 1987 said , sometimes people ( or in this case animals) fail to stop immediately despite horrific injuries. But far more times than not traumatic injuries to hearts , spines or brains -especially when created by rifles- tend to have a more immediate and telling effect than peripheral hits.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Velo Dog View Post
    FBI test summary of .357 Sig Speer Gold Dot HP 53918

    https://869789182725854870-a-armsmas...www/357sig.pdf
    53918 appears to perform exceptionally well, at least by my reading of the test. Did they also test the other gold dot loading?

    Thanks all, great info here.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Fsumach View Post
    We see an increase in the performance of the 124 gold dot to the 124+p. Shouldn't we expect a similar linear increase in performance with the 357?
    A look at the external ballistics may help one better understand the terminal ballistics.

    357 SIG muzzle velocity= 1350fps (125gr. jhp, Ballistic Coefficient 0.15)
    9x19mm muzzle velocity= 1150fps (124gr. jhp, Ballistic Coefficient 0.15)
    Velocity Difference 0 yd= 200 fps

    357 SIG velocity 100 yd= 1078fps
    9x19mm velocity 100 yd= 977 fps
    Vel Difference @ 100 yd= 101 fps

    357 SIG velocity 1000yd= 466 fps
    9x19mm velocity 1000yd= 441 fps
    Vel Difference @ 1000yd= 25 fps

    The 357 SIG has a 142 ft-lb muzzle energy advantage that drops to a mere 7 ft-lb edge over the 9mm at 1000 yards.

    However, the 357 reaches a target at 500 yards 140 milliseconds quicker and has a slightly longer maximum range.

    Although the bullets are traveling through air rather than a water media, the effect of time is evident. Running or jogging requires more effort than walking and therefore is a harder pace to maintain. Two race cars may have different 0-60 mph times but identical top speed. An initial speed advantage may prove less significant as the distance traveled increases.

    P.S.
    The 357 SIG in this example has less bullet drop but MORE wind drift than the 9x19mm

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Fsumach View Post
    53918 appears to perform exceptionally well, at least by my reading of the test. Did they also test the other gold dot loading?
    Sorry, I am unable to answer your question. Besides the links I have already posted for 54234, the only information I have found is various internet quotes similar to this one...

    "There are 2 kinds of Gold-dot in this caliber. One is a reduced penetration load, and one is the Texas DPS load. The reduced penetration load is what is commonly sold, and the TX DPS load is all from TX DPS and in 50-round boxes. The model number ends in "234". It offers slightly less expansion (.05" or so), and about 1.5" more penetration in gel testing. It has .2gr more powder, and is listed as 1375fps whereas the reduced penetration load is listed at 1350fps."

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Velo Dog View Post
    Sorry, I am unable to answer your question. Besides the links I have already posted for 54234, the only information I have found is various internet quotes similar to this one...

    "There are 2 kinds of Gold-dot in this caliber. One is a reduced penetration load, and one is the Texas DPS load. The reduced penetration load is what is commonly sold, and the TX DPS load is all from TX DPS and in 50-round boxes. The model number ends in "234". It offers slightly less expansion (.05" or so), and about 1.5" more penetration in gel testing. It has .2gr more powder, and is listed as 1375fps whereas the reduced penetration load is listed at 1350fps."
    Thanks to all for the help!

  6. #66
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    Some really tremendous, prime-time DocGKR posts in this thread. Somehow I still manage to learn something new every time, though I'm sure on Doc's end the repetition has to get tiring.

    I understand the persuasive power of anecdotal evidence. I'm a trial attorney, and have seen both judges and juries swayed to conclusions that are purely factually incorrect because of a stirring enough anecdote. My own father cannot be talked into 9mm no matter how many facts I give him due to witnessing an abysmal performance by an early 1990's-issued 9mm hollow point, to the point where I had throw up my hands, get him a well-reputed .40 S&W platform with one of the loads from The List, and call it good.

    At the end of the day, data writ large, backed by repetition, critical review, and quality research methods, is the best way to make almost any serious decision, and there's simply not a better source for that data than Doc and his associates here in late 2017. Even a profoundly experienced street officer or military operator with dozens of use-of-force applications cannot match a team of subject matter experts analyzing thousands or even tens of thousands of similar applications when it comes to the factual conclusions.

    Somewhere out there, every single caliber and manufacturer is probably carried by someone with an anecdote to back it up. Someone who uses a Beretta Tomcat in .32 in a self-defense shooting, aims true, and drops an assailant in a single shot will likely have an emotional connection to that round and platform, despite the fact that they are objectively bad choices in this day and age.

    It was said earlier in the thread...feels get good people killed if they're prioritized over data. Thanks to data and critical analysis, my brother carries an FBI-standard-compliant .40 S&W round from The List in his law enforcement job that involves dozens of vehicle contacts per day. As a member of a four-generation law enforcement family, I am haunted by the failures in tactics and ballistics that took the lives of some officers, including a well-publicized incident where five 125-grain .357 Magnums failed to penetrate sufficiently to incapacitate a suspect, who then slew the officer with a single mouse gun round aimed improbably through a gap in the officer's ballistic vest.

    Science and research yield real results. Thanks to them, my brother's 180-grain Gold Dot is more likely to gain the required penetration if aimed well that will terminally effect his assailant and stop the threat. I know that not because of word-of-mouth or apocrypha, but because of scientific replication which has translated into real-world effects. Even THEN, about five years ago an officer in my state dropped 5-6 180-grain .40 S&W Gold Dots into the chest of an assailant armed with a lead pipe, and that guy walked away fine. So handguns continue to be handguns and weirdness continues to attend shootings. The wheel rolls onward, but taking a step back shows that replacing word of mouth with science has resulted in dramatic improvement in handgun technology in a few short decades.
    Last edited by LockedBreech; 12-08-2017 at 03:31 AM.
    State Government Attorney | Beretta, Glock, CZ & S&W Fan

  7. #67
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    First I must say that I agree with Doc's data analysis, and I think that finally truth is known. However, I must say that the fine print screams this fact: acceptable performance is dependent on bullet choice. Examples would be bullets used in Winchester Ranger, Gold Dot, and Federal HST ammo. Federal, for instance, continues to make popular 9mm hollow point ammo that does not perform as well as their current enforcement line. The same may apply to Winchester. Decades of 9mm ammo failure in police shootings spurred research producing our current excellent defense rounds. Even now all 9mm h.p. ammo is not equal(as most here are aware). Your dad may remember the 9mm's less than stellar record from the past. Those interested might research Lee Jurras and his super-Vel ammo line.

  8. #68
    Site Supporter 0ddl0t's Avatar
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    Necroposting...

    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR View Post
    In looking at 2 separate FBI tests of 357 Sig 125 gr Gold Dot compared to 3 different FBI tests of 9 mm 124 gr Gold Dot, the results are basically the same in terms of expansion and penetration depths.
    <snip>
    In aggregate, there is no greater physiological damage caused by 357 Sig compared to other service pistol calibers.


    Your image appears to show a much larger wound cavity with .357sig than 9mm -- something I imagine could be measured by standing the block on end and recording how much liquid it took to fill the cavity. Is the permanent wound cavity really that irrelevant in quantifying physiological damage?
    Last edited by 0ddl0t; 09-01-2019 at 04:06 AM.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by 0ddl0t View Post
    Necroposting...





    Your image appears to show a much larger wound cavity with .357sig than 9mm -- something I imagine could be measured by standing the block on end and recording how much liquid it took to fill the cavity. Is the permanent wound cavity really that irrelevant in quantifying physiological damage?
    The permanent crush cavity hasn't changed between the 9mm and the .357sig. They are virtually identical. The wider gel cloud that you see in the picture from the .357sig is the temporary cavity stretch(TCS). Gel tends to stretch and crack to a higher degree than actual tissue. Tissue is incredibly elastic, and has not been observed to actually be damaged when examined on the operating table or in the morgue. The only time that you see the TCS result in actual tissue damage is when you see wounds generated by rifle cartridges(usually 2000fps or more). The TCS can also result in tissue damage by larger calibers at velocities around 1500fps like the .45-70, full power 12gauge slugs, or magnum calibers like .50AE. This is why the .357sig and .45acp have similar temporary cavity stretches, even though the .45acp travels at a much slower velocity. The generally accepted scientific knowledge about this subject is that there is no measurable or observable benefit to the small increase in TCS from 9mm to .357sig to indicate that one is more effective than the other. Measurable benefits to the 9mm would be increased magazine capacity, lighter recoil for faster and more accurate follow-up shots, and reduced blast and flash.

    Personally, based on my years to shooting game, I feel that there "might" be a benefit to a larger TCS depending on shot placement. For me at least, I still continue to use .45acp for a larger hole size and a larger TCS in a full sized service pistol. As the pistol size gets smaller, I prefer to reduce caliber size to make the pistol more manageable and keep capacity at a reasonable level.

  10. #70
    Site Supporter 0ddl0t's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galbraith View Post
    They are virtually identical. The wider gel cloud that you see in the picture from the .357sig is the temporary cavity stretch(TCS).
    Maybe I have my terminology confused - I thought this was the temporary stretch cavity?

    Name:  Screenshot_2019-09-01-04-53-27-1.jpg
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    (taken from Brass Fetcher's .357sig gold dot video)
    Last edited by 0ddl0t; 09-01-2019 at 06:58 AM.

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