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Thread: Firearms and young children

  1. #41
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    I would caution that just because the 'talk' from Dad worked for you, that is no guarantee that it will work for others. In a similar vein, a case I know of.

    Dad was a car nut and had a Chevy Nova SS 454. He loved that car. His son was an honor student that would make you proud - Scouts, Church, Grades, nice to puppies and old ladies, etc.

    When son became 16 and got his license he asked Dad to drive the car for the first time. Dad said OK but only slowly in the neighborhood and no friends. The law found the kid and friends wrapped around a pole from a 100 mph crash, no one lived.

    So I agree that till the kid reaches a more adult level (as above) unsupervised access is risky. Today's social media climate is scary.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    I would caution that just because the 'talk' from Dad worked for you, that is no guarantee that it will work for others. In a similar vein, a case I know of.

    Dad was a car nut and had a Chevy Nova SS 454. He loved that car. His son was an honor student that would make you proud - Scouts, Church, Grades, nice to puppies and old ladies, etc.

    When son became 16 and got his license he asked Dad to drive the car for the first time. Dad said OK but only slowly in the neighborhood and no friends. The law found the kid and friends wrapped around a pole from a 100 mph crash, no one lived.

    So I agree that till the kid reaches a more adult level (as above) unsupervised access is risky. Today's social media climate is scary.
    Ya I teach for a living, like pay the bills. No kid is the same and they will often tell you what you want to hear. I really am enjoying the dialogue though, many opinions on this.

  3. #43
    I have heard good things about John Johnston(ballistic radio) & Melody Lauer's "armed parent class" which covers these kinds of questions. Short of taking their class you might be able to reach out to them on facebook, both are pretty active with live Q&A videos. I belive Melody's husband is a P-F member, though I don't recall his name.
    http://citizensdefenseresearch.com/
    https://www.facebook.com/CitizensDef...VKUhrIS52mfGkE
    https://primaryandsecondary.com/citi...tguardian-aar/
    https://www.facebook.com/LimatunesRangeDiary/
    https://www.facebook.com/ballisticradio/
    Last edited by Artemas2; 11-24-2017 at 07:24 PM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    If a kid can walk reasonably as a toddler, they can fire the gun. Given past debates, I once turned to the medical literature on children's hand strength. The literature exists for orthopedic and muscular disease references. I found that even the toddlers have enough hand strength to activate a DA trigger. Flipping a safety is trivial. Kids did that in seconds in a few tests of giving them unloaded guns.
    What *kind* of DA trigger? When I was first introducing my oldest to live fire at 8 or 9, she could not pull a DA revolver trigger and struggled enough with the SA hammer on my Bearcat that I would help her cock it each shot. Even as recently as when she was 12, she struggled with the DA trigger on my K22. That's why I have the 22/45, so she wouldn't have to fight against the gun to shoot it. Needless to say, I'm dubious about the claim that a toddler can actuate a DA trigger *as I know them*. It's especially dubious when we get into discussions about senior citizens and there are comments that they can't manage DA revolver triggers. So now we're saying a toddler can, but a senior citizen can't? Regardless, my point was that the heavier trigger was not to stop a determined child, but to prevent sloppy handling actuation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    It is also the case that the young ones may understand your warnings and then completely ignore them when given a firearm and they are unobserved. For older kids and teens in particular, you may think you know your kids but you may not really. Those who pontificate that they do and run a tight ship may be particularly clueless. Their social lives can generate crisis so quickly that the parent is unaware of such. You have the risk of their friends also. It's great to give them gun lessons and demystify them as that might reduce some risk but the social forces risk outweigh the curiosity risk IMHO.
    No doubt there, which is why even now I do not leave my guns unsecured around the house. Nor do we allow friends over without either me or my wife in the house (I work from home and wife works part time, so there's seldom an opportunity for friends to show up when nobody is home).

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    Having easy access to gun is a risk and the Internet trigger pull cliches are foolish for the little kids. For the older ones, yes - some kids have saved the day with guns. That's true. But you play that against the other risks. It's a tough call. In Bastrop, after the fires, parents left to get supplies and their teenage daughter successfully defended the house against potential looters as she was equipped by the parents before they left. However, would you leave the guns always accessible? That's a risk.

    My conclusion - it's complex and I don't trust the trigger pull and/or I lectured my kids mantras as sufficient.
    It's layered security. Guns are locked up, those that are frequently "out" (on belt, etc) are not super-easy to actuate, and the kids are raised in a way to armor them against a "playing with guns" mindset. None of those alone are sufficient, but the combination of the three *should* prevent preventable tragedies.

    Chris

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
    I would caution that just because the 'talk' from Dad worked for you, that is no guarantee that it will work for others. In a similar vein, a case I know of.

    Dad was a car nut and had a Chevy Nova SS 454. He loved that car. His son was an honor student that would make you proud - Scouts, Church, Grades, nice to puppies and old ladies, etc.

    When son became 16 and got his license he asked Dad to drive the car for the first time. Dad said OK but only slowly in the neighborhood and no friends. The law found the kid and friends wrapped around a pole from a 100 mph crash, no one lived.

    So I agree that till the kid reaches a more adult level (as above) unsupervised access is risky. Today's social media climate is scary.
    That was dad's fault. Not for trusting his son, but for thinking any new driver should be behind the wheel of that car. Most adults aren't well prepared to deal with the horsepower combined with a lack of modern traction control, ABS, etc, that make the modern equivalents manageable by amateurs.

    Chris

  6. #46
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    It doesn't matter what kind of DA trigger it is - a healthy child can get it to fire. Not necessarily aimed fire, which is what a senior citizen training to defend themselves is worried about.

    A 5yo can get a TDA to fire. The child will use both his or her thumbs on the trigger, fingers all on the back of the grip, gun upside down, muzzle pointed at their chest or stomach, and perhaps in contact in order to get the leverage needed to overcome the trigger weight.

  7. #47
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    I used to believe small children couldnt fire a DA revolver, but I was proven wrong by a friends 5 year old. He had zero problem running the trigger on my 640.

    I wouldnt trust a high shelf in a closet to be safe. Maybe for a hidden Christmas present, but its discovery has far less consequences when discovered. I also wouldnt trust an "off limits room" to be safe. As somebody mentioned, you can buy a keyed entry knob for pretty cheap and put it on a closet (buy ones for the entry door, the ones often made for inside use, I think i was able to pick when about 5), as i did for visiting small children, or on room doors. The only true safe place for the key is on you 24/7, or in a combination safe, the instant you relax and lay it down somewhere, its fair game. I carry such important keys on a cord around my neck, even when sleeping when on trips. As a habit, I never, ever, leave keys laying around in the house for any reason, even when living alone. They are either on me or in a combination safe. Its a really bad habit to leave keys laying around for people with guns and kids if the keys lead to guns.

    The cheapo cable locks are better than nothing for securing un-attended guns. I can suggest a good place to keep the key, but one could likely guess.

  8. #48
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    My thoughts and I have 3 kids: 14, 12, 10. I have been in LE the entire time so I do a lot of musical guns. Duty holster, concealed carry, leaving for work, going to court, off-duty, going to training, going to SWAT training - different gear, guns, etc.

    #1 My son accidently burned himself on the iron once so anything dangerous was "hot like the iron." Not sure how to duplicate that on purpose but he got it.

    #2 I taught them the Eddie Eagle stuff. If you see a gun, stop, don't touch it, go get a grown up. As they grew I told them if they ever found and gun and told me about it without touch it I would give them money. I hid guns (unloaded of course because somebody would ask) in their stuff and watched them. When the saw it and ran to me I gave them $20.

    #3 I never hid my guns. I told them they could hurt people, worse than the iron. If we saw roadkill and they were grossed out by it or distressed by the thought of death I would tell them a gun could do that so if they saw one they better just get me and get the reward.

    #4 I took them all shooting when the wanted too and never since and if they ever wanted to shoot a gun, handle a gun, etc. all they had to do was ask.
    A71593

  9. #49
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    That was dad's fault. Not for trusting his son
    It just wasn't the car. As I posted, Dad said NO FRIENDS. The kid picked up his friends and then I suppose being boys they machoed themselves into the death ride. The friends part indicates that social forces screw kids. Also, for the TDA debate, I was thinking - if the gun has a hammer manipulable , TDA is meaningless.

    There are videos of studies where five year olds are given the don't touch lecture. Adult leaves the room and the kids start playing with the guns.

  10. #50
    The primary concern seems to be keeping the gun in the holster. Low-riding leather AIWB holsters seem to be preferred for weapon retention in grappling while still having quick access to the user. Also, kids will hit you in the crotch with their hands, feet, and head. Leather will hurt both of you a little less than any of the plastics.

    The secondary concern seems to be a kid firing the gun once you lose control of it. Maybe it’s a good excuse to learn to shoot something else but if a little kid can take your gun, you are a big threat to your children. Some people fall asleep on the couch and some kids are dicks sometimes. That doesn’t make you less of a man to make the admission. Restrict access at all times. Smart carry completely solves that issue but the draw is slow.

    Firearm model is fairly irrelevant in my opinion.

    I’ll not comment on the primary layer of safety in raising/teaching kids as I’m also fairly new at training crazed munchkins.

    TL;DR: low-riding leather AIWB or smart carry in house
    Bob Loblaw lobs law bombs

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