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Thread: The Reckoning: Sexual Harassment

  1. #21
    The R in F.A.R.T RevolverRob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misanthropist View Post
    I have mixed feelings about the whole thing.

    On one hand, there are clearly lots of instances of workplace harassment, intimidation and violence which went unpunished, and the victims have every right to seek redress.

    I'm not sure whether I think there is meaning in specifically identifying it as "sexual" harassment, intimidation, and violence. On one hand, we do as a society traditionally make that distinction; sexual assault is a separate crime from assault in every western nation I can think of.
    I agree and while I find value in this distinction your next point is quite accurate...

    On the other hand, it restricts the pool of likely victims and perpetrators in a really specific way. It also means that everyone who was intimidated or harassed or threatened, in situations where that was likely because massive power imbalances are the rule and not the exception, is going to get left out in the cold by this particular cleansing.
    I think this is one of the most critical insights of this particular "Reckoning". Which is that in nearly all instances it is a large power imbalance between the harasser and the harassed. It's clear in the case of some individuals (Weinstein for example) that power has been frequently used to cover up or outright manipulate people in addition to those who were the direct victims of abuse. And as near as we can tell, there is almost no recourse for those victims.

    Although I caution to be careful, because there could be accomplices masquerading as victims. At some point individuals must draw a moral line.

    It also poses the problem of whether unsupported accusations are sufficient to destroy a career etc.

    This ties in, in a very uncomfortable way in my opinion, with the whole "believe her" theme that runs through sexual assault cases in general, in which people are encouraged to uncritically accept accusations by women, against men.

    So I find the issue complex and troubling. On one hand there's obvious creeps engaged in criminal and despicable behaviour and lots of that is finally coming to light after they protected themselves for years or decades with wealth and/or the support of business or political or personal allies.

    On the other hand, we're seeing a feeding frenzy of highly gendered accusations and punishments and that kind of atmosphere strikes me as highly prone to abuse - in particular my experience is that there is a large wing of the feminist movement which absolutely cannot be trusted with unfettered power, and in a sense that's what this looks to be very rapidly developing in to.
    The last point is really the most depressing aspect. As "powerful" leaders and well-respected people are taken done by this frenzy (as you so rightly call it); I have personally witnessed the results. While, I'm not one to suggest that women should not be empowered to confront abusers, nor should they have to tolerate abuse, I've seen some pretty nasty things happen recently. One incident, a colleague of mine made a "Me too" post on Facebook, and a "friend" of her's wrote an impolite (but not abusive or even directed at her response). In retaliation my colleague utilized access to a set of foaming feminists friends and peers to actually harass her "friend" by quoting his commentary and sending it to his employer, particularly his supervisors and HR...essentially creating a smear campaign against this individual.

    She was utterly over the line in her response and fortunately for her "friend" he is friends with good attorneys who rapidly sent her a cease and desist notice and nipped this in the bud. None-the-less given the current political climate, she is convinced that she is morally in the right and should have the legal right to ruin this guy's life. Even though, he, as far as I know, never actually did anything to harass her.

    This type of unfettered unchecked environment is inane.

    Personally, I avoid these problems by following a strict set of professional rules - 1) Never be alone with a female colleague or student behind closed doors. 2) Keep my fucking mouth shut and don't say inflammatory things in public venues and/or social media. 3) Always report instances of things where I feel impropriety could have unintentionally occurred and get everything documented to address anything after the fact (fortunately, this almost never happens).

    Oh yea and rule 4) Don't be fucking scumbag.
    Last edited by RevolverRob; 11-21-2017 at 02:24 PM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by blues View Post
    Apparently you're not alone...

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  3. #23
    The whole sexual harassment thing is going to get out of hand. As with others I fear that the cry wolf mentality will eventually set in and cases where actual abuse will be ignored. Not a good thing. I’m not sure what the solution to the problem is though. There is going to need to be some reckoning when it comes to giving false accusers a free pass.

  4. #24
    Member Peally's Avatar
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    We're already well into cry wolf territory. My instant reaction to any decades old harassment claims in the news is "show proof or shut up".
    Last edited by Peally; 11-21-2017 at 03:10 PM.
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  5. #25
    Four String Fumbler Joe in PNG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peally View Post
    We're already well into cry wolf territory. My instant reaction to any decades old harassment claims in the news is "show proof or shut up".
    Yes and no. It may very well be the bandwagon effect for some claims; then again, it may very well be that the reason some claims are coming out is because the victim was of the mind that no one would believe them. Only now, with others coming forward, are people willing to listen.
    "You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by misanthropist View Post
    On the other hand, it restricts the pool of likely victims and perpetrators in a really specific way. It also means that everyone who was intimidated or harassed or threatened, in situations where that was likely because massive power imbalances are the rule and not the exception, is going to get left out in the cold by this particular cleansing.
    Quote Originally Posted by TAZ View Post
    The whole sexual harassment thing is going to get out of hand. As with others I fear that the cry wolf mentality will eventually set in and cases where actual abuse will be ignored. Not a good thing. I’m not sure what the solution to the problem is though. There is going to need to be some reckoning when it comes to giving false accusers a free pass.
    As with every media frenzy, this will burn out in time and hopefully only the real bad nuts will get shaken from the tree. For the moment, it seems mostly "D's" + Roy Moore.

    o̶c̶c̶u̶p̶y̶ ̶_̶_̶_̶_̶_̶
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    believe every accuser

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    Last edited by RoyGBiv; 11-21-2017 at 03:44 PM.
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  7. #27
    Site Supporter NEPAKevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TAZ View Post
    The whole sexual harassment thing is going to get out of hand. As with others I fear that the cry wolf mentality will eventually set in and cases where actual abuse will be ignored. Not a good thing. I’m not sure what the solution to the problem is though. There is going to need to be some reckoning when it comes to giving false accusers a free pass.
    That's more or less what I recall happened after the Anita Hill/Clarence Thomas hearings where the Feminazis tried to lower the bar to the point of institutional emasculation of anyone with a job and a penis. OTOH, I'm pretty sure coerced sex, physical assault and rape have always been criminal offences for my adult life. I am however some what skeptical of the timing of some of the accusations and the subsequent piling on being perceived as proof with out due process.
    "You can't win a war with choirboys. " Mad Mike Hoare

  8. #28
    Member Peally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe in PNG View Post
    Yes and no. It may very well be the bandwagon effect for some claims; then again, it may very well be that the reason some claims are coming out is because the victim was of the mind that no one would believe them. Only now, with others coming forward, are people willing to listen.
    Could be, but unless there's actual proof beyond one person's claim against another's I'll doubt it by default.
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  9. #29
    Four String Fumbler Joe in PNG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peally View Post
    Could be, but unless there's actual proof beyond one person's claim against another's I'll doubt it by default.
    What kind of proof? Let's say Billy finds Sue the intern alone making copies. He snuggles up close behind her, and starts making suggestive statements.
    How does Sue prove anything if no one else saw it?
    "You win 100% of the fights you avoid. If you're not there when it happens, you don't lose." - William Aprill
    "I've owned a guitar for 31 years and that sure hasn't made me a musician, let alone an expert. It's made me a guy who owns a guitar."- BBI

  10. #30
    banana republican blues's Avatar
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    I've had unwanted advances from women at various times in my life...but I was only "molested" once.

    Once, while riding the subway in a packed car I was standing next to the pole in the center with a number of folks, just hanging on as the train made it's way into Manhattan.

    I felt a hand very gently brush my, ahem, privates and quickly looked up and around to see if I could figure out who was going to get decked...

    ...Next thing I know I see a very attractive twenty-something woman on the other side of the pole giving me a knowing look with a coy smile. I was so taken aback at the time I didn't know whether to ask for her number or quite what I wanted to say. I've often wondered what might have happened had I pursued the matter.

    Glenn Close "I'm not gonna be ignored" bat shit crazy...or "Last Tango in Paris" anonymous adventure.

    Too late now...but I'll never forget that subway ride.

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