Haley D7 program

[octagon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl1g-wtdI94

I ran across this and thought it was very impressive. Considering the FATS and CAPS systems I have used with simulated guns and live fire and FoF training this is incredible. The safety aspect for newer shooters, eliminating the Simunitions/UTM and blank risks and the adaptability is something that can benefit all levels of shooters in CCW,Mil and LE circles.

Once the cost and availability are better it should be a really valuable training and testing tool. It won't eliminate live fire,FoF or basic dry work but it sure does augment it well.

[Peally]

Reminds me of more advanced versions of those police video trainers. I'm eager to see what sort of things people come up with now that VR isn't as crappy as it once was too.

[voodoo_man]

The FATS system I went through several times was glitchy and crappy, scenarios were not well executed and yes I know many of them were from real world shoots.

I don't like Haley, but the idea has a lot of merit, I'm assuming they use a laser system against a projection that's being tracked via laptop. The scenarios are what will make or break this setup.

If it's awesome I'd be happy it exists as this is a much needed building block for rookies and ccw folks to induce stress which they may not experience, ever.

This is just a step though, the next iteration needs to be real world scenarios that involve your actual skill sets, not just your trigger finger, eyes and thinking about what you should do, but physically doing it.

In th video there's a scenario which shows a mall or movie theater front doors with people running out, physically going forward in that particular situation is a huge mental/physical hurdle for many. Hell I've seen officers freeze and not go in. It's good to have a scenario which automatically pushes you through, and makes you discriminate, but without physical follow-up it'll fall short of hitting the mark.

[octagon]

The FATS system I went through several times was glitchy and crappy, scenarios were not well executed and yes I know many of them were from real world shoots.

I don't like Haley, but the idea has a lot of merit, I'm assuming they use a laser system against a projection that's being tracked via laptop. The scenarios are what will make or break this setup.

If it's awesome I'd be happy it exists as this is a much needed building block for rookies and ccw folks to induce stress which they may not experience, ever.

This is just a step though, the next iteration needs to be real world scenarios that involve your actual skill sets, not just your trigger finger, eyes and thinking about what you should do, but physically doing it.

In th video there's a scenario which shows a mall or movie theater front doors with people running out, physically going forward in that particular situation is a huge mental/physical hurdle for many. Hell I've seen officers freeze and not go in. It's good to have a scenario which automatically pushes you through, and makes you discriminate, but without physical follow-up it'll fall short of hitting the mark.

Definitely some valid concerns. No system will solve all issues and not this one either. Most of your points would probably be better addressed in training with FoF using Simunitions,UTM or the laser based Stress vest system. There you can have more physical movement,exertion, full depth and distance engagement and 3 D factors such as angles and geometry of cover use and positioning of threats and innocents moving in the foreground and background. The laser based systems eliminate projectiles so no damage or clean up, no protective gear blocking facial cues and less risk of injury or mix up with live lethal weapons as it doesn't use conversion kits. The problem with all the FoF is the challenge of getting enough participants and having them act appropriately. Finding locations is also an issue with projectile based systems but less so with laser.

What I like so much about this system is that a person can do multiple scenarios with multiple variations and responses of threats and people on screen. These can be adjusted on the fly by the monitor via laptop. I believe lighting and weather/visibility can be adjusted too. It allows for one monitor/controller and one or more participants so a lot easier to do more scenarios. The system can allow the use of TASER and pepper spray simulants.

The FATS system I used was fair but super narrow field of view(screen) and not very reactive/responding to actions and used tethered guns. The CAPS system at our department was better for screen size (7' X10') but still narrow and no reacting from on screen people. It uses live fire through the screen but angles and size/distance issues were skewed a little.

Between dry and live fire square range stuff,this and FoF a well rounded tactics focused person could be developed about as well as possible in a safe training environment. Unfortunately the more realistic the more expensive.

[voodoo_man]

Definitely some valid concerns. No system will solve all issues and not this one either. Most of your points would probably be better addressed in training with FoF using Simunitions,UTM or the laser based Stress vest system. There you can have more physical movement,exertion, full depth and distance engagement and 3 D factors such as angles and geometry of cover use and positioning of threats and innocents moving in the foreground and background. The laser based systems eliminate projectiles so no damage or clean up, no protective gear blocking facial cues and less risk of injury or mix up with live lethal weapons as it doesn't use conversion kits. The problem with all the FoF is the challenge of getting enough participants and having them act appropriately. Finding locations is also an issue with projectile based systems but less so with laser.

What I like so much about this system is that a person can do multiple scenarios with multiple variations and responses of threats and people on screen. These can be adjusted on the fly by the monitor via laptop. I believe lighting and weather/visibility can be adjusted too. It allows for one monitor/controller and one or more participants so a lot easier to do more scenarios. The system can allow the use of TASER and pepper spray simulants.

The FATS system I used was fair but super narrow field of view(screen) and not very reactive/responding to actions and used tethered guns. The CAPS system at our department was better for screen size (7' X10') but still narrow and no reacting from on screen people. It uses live fire through the screen but angles and size/distance issues were skewed a little.

Between dry and live fire square range stuff,this and FoF a well rounded tactics focused person could be developed about as well as possible in a safe training environment. Unfortunately the more realistic the more expensive.

All of your points are fair and true. One thing I want to point out though.

Failing in a tactical environment should mean pain. Either by a Sim hitting you somewhere and you feeling the pain rush or like how one of the swat instructors made us do laps and burpees in kit if we didn't do something we were supposed to. Pain makes you smarter and it definitely makes you learn. When you introduce pain into a FoF tactical scenario, after all the ground work is laid out and the pain training modifier is needed to hammer home certain skillsets then that's when the learnin' really starts, in my opinion. That's not possible with this d7 system.

[octagon]

All of your points are fair and true. One thing I want to point out though.

Failing in a tactical environment should mean pain. Either by a Sim hitting you somewhere and you feeling the pain rush or like how one of the swat instructors made us do laps and burpees in kit if we didn't do something we were supposed to. Pain makes you smarter and it definitely makes you learn. When you introduce pain into a FoF tactical scenario, after all the ground work is laid out and the pain training modifier is needed to hammer home certain skillsets then that's when the learnin' really starts, in my opinion. That's not possible with this d7 system.

I agree totally. It is like the instant feedback you get from shooting steel either positive or negative. FoF is the way to do it. The Laser based system of stress vest has the ability to have the pain penalty. It is adjustable from a vibration to shock and can be set to continuously pulse to simulate an injury unlike Sims or UTM where there is nothing after the initial hit. This could be introduced into the D7 set up as the Stress vest pain module is remote controllable by a person monitoring the scenario. Not the perfect solution but it does add some pain penalty.

[lwt16]

My Captain called me yesterday to come to a location in town to T&E a simulator since he knows I go through a lot of ammo on my own dime.

Been years since I ran scenarios on FATS and other simulators.

Pros are that the weaponry was no longer tethered to the instrument and ran off of quick charges of CO2. The carbine and Glock 17 were both actual weapons with actual weight with fully functioning controls. Both could be remote controlled to take a dump forcing the player to do clearing drills and whatnot......so that part was a step in the right direction.

Magazines seemed to hold up well as when it was my turn, instead of catching them in my hands like a couple of the other participants, I let them fly to the unforgiving concrete below and I couldn't tear up any of them. All scenarios were changeable by the operator and I ran through a bunch of them.....traffic stops, static range stuff, domestics, active killer......about 300 scenarios on tap.

The cons.....

Scenarios were completely predictable and you could see things coming from a mile away. The "lead" time on mover targets was the same at 25 yards as they were at 100, the recoil impulses were too weak, and this was all on a flat screen instead of being surrounded by screens. Movement was pretty futile as if you went to your right, you blocked the projector and what I assume was the laser detector to see what you did and didn't muzzle.

So to save time, I give whatever system it was a B minus.......and the two guys pitching it were doing a good job at trying to sell the training staff on paying a yearly fee for us to play with it. Nothing is going to replace live fire though and while simulators do a good job in placing decision making on the table, a lot of our officers could benefit more from running good fundamental drills with a case of ammo per year....instead of the mandatory 50 rounds on a huge Q target. And I do prefer FoF with Simunitions but even in the last department sponsored course, it was explained to us in the outset that we wouldn't be taking rounds as they didn't want us "worrying" about that and instead learning the material.

I was a little put off by that as I like the aspect of soaking up a simulated bee sting if I do something stupid in the shoot house. I like the elevated heart rate and associated physiological impact of knowing that there is penalties for mistakes.

But that is just me.

Regards.

[Peally]

I feel like you completely lose the entire point of simunitions if you know you won't be shot at. Might as well use far cheaper options to teach the same lessons then.

[lwt16]

Well, this is the same place that runs a weapon light class at noon on an outdoor range.

The second part of it was Simunitions in a shoot house but we were shooting at paper "bad guy" targets. Gave us like five rounds cause two bucks a round.

So I waited to go last and fully loaded two mags and went in there and John Wicked the place.......while the instructors whined about me burning through 40.00 worth of ammo. "Trigger happy MFer" was uttered as I laughed it off.

[voodoo_man]

I feel like you completely lose the entire point of simunitions if you know you won't be shot at. Might as well use far cheaper options to teach the same lessons then.

The reason these types of systems are good is for flushing out the "What-if's" and making people think, then showing them recordings of themselves during an AAR. I've done this during Sim FoF a lot of times and people don't even know they are doing something most of the time because they are so mentally taxed on a specific problem/subject. As I stated, for rookies and/or CCW folks who want to get their actions flushed out, this type of thing (if done correctly) is invaluable.

Imagine working 8-10 hours straight shoot/no-shoot scenarios involving verbal commands and hard decisions needed to be made every single time. Breaking only for a few minutes to watch yourself during the scenario in split screen - your facial expressions, eye movements, weapon placement/etc, words used, flinch responses, etc. Do that for two days straight with a few guys who know how to work people through it properly - that's good money spent.

Unfortunately that doesn't exist right now, so if this D7 thing is legit, fantastic.