USPSA as a skills development tool for LE

[Lon]

"I'm doing it tactically" is an oft heard refrain because...



... a fat, middle age plummer in a bicycle jersey just kicked your tactical ass.

So much this. I have an open invitation for guys to go shoot matches with me. It’s rare that someone goes to more than one after said plumber whips their ass. I think part of this is due to the fact that many cops HAVE to feel confident in themselves, even if deep down they know it’s misplaced. Why? Because we have to make split second decisions quite often and lacking self confidence makes you second guess yourself, which can be a bad thing if done at the wrong time. So instead they ignore the fact they sucked at the match, keep telling themselves, “I qualify without a problem, I’m good”. And then don’t go back because they don’t want to admit they suck and if they ignore it, it will go away.

USPSA isn't skill building.
USPSA is probably the best TEST of dynamic handgun shooting skills.
Taking the results of that test and then using range time to correct the deficiencies is where the skills building comes in.

Competition is not training is not practicing is not qualifying is not real life

Very well put. I shoot USPSA as the ultimate test of my technical skills under as much pressure as I can get without going to FoF. When I stopped chasing the M classification years ago I was at @83%. I finally decided that the big M wasn’t important any more. And I started shooting my carry or duty guns. It’s just as much fun, but the guns are cheaper. Ammo is too. I still have my gamer gear, but it usually get used less than my carry or duty gear.

I differentiate between the game (it is not a sport) of USPSA and tactics I use at work. I don’t feel that the game hinders my ability to use good tactics. Just the opposite, really. I can actually spend more time thinking tactics and less time worrying about my shooting skills because of that technical proficiency. I’ve rarely seen an LEO who is what I consider extremely technically proficient that isn’t a USPSA or IDPA shooter. I know a lot that can shoot certain drills very well, but when put into a complex USPSA stage when there’s more thinking involved they tend to choke when something goes wrong.

[JHC]

How does a surprise stage work JHC?

NTI did it big. I've seen it done on an indoor venue where shooters first entered when it was their turn to shoot. Easiest is just to not rehearse it wherever you find yourself.

But it's not that big a deal. And in general . . .

Everything is not always that big a deal PF.

Everything is not a slight to USPSA.

FoF isn't a slight to USPSA.

MMA isn't a slight to katas.

USPSA is the ultimate performance shooting venue. I get it. Everybody gets it.

[jetfire]

NTI did it big. I've seen it done on an indoor venue where shooters first entered when it was their turn to shoot. Easiest is just to not rehearse it wherever you find yourself.

But it's not that big a deal. And in general . . .

Everything is not always that big a deal PF.

Everything is not a slight to USPSA.

FoF isn't a slight to USPSA.

MMA isn't a slight to katas.

USPSA is the ultimate performance shooting venue. I get it. Everybody gets it.

I've done plenty of blind/surprise stages. For a while they were all the rage at the IDPA Indoor Nationals, so you'd get at least two or three of them, usually in low/no light. I'm not even saying they're bad or that people shouldn't do them, what I'm saying is that in the context of USPSA they don't make sense, because they're counter to the whole point of USPSA, which is getting better at shooting.

[Dr. No]

@GJM you gotta tag me in these when you post stuff right up my alley.

I think the reason you see guys focus on targets right in front of them is because that's what we've trained them to do. 10 people, all in a line, looking at the one piece of paper down range they have to put holes in. A "dynamic" environment basically never exists until they start working in a shoot house, and that is very rare for the majority of all cops. Your mileage may vary by Department leadership and budget.

I've had this "tactics" argument a million times. Matches are marksmanship practice. They have absolutely, 100%, NOTHING to do with tactics. Tactics are what you learn with your organization and how they do business. How your team operates, and what factors exist to make you shift tactics as needed. What matches and marksmanship enable you to do is move hitting your target and running your gun into your subconscious mind, freeing up cycles for your conscious mind to solve the problem you are faced with. There was also this huge study done, and they discovered that if you put a ton of time, training, and pracitce into a subject, you tended to improve your skills with it. Weird. Anyway, when things go sideways with guns in high stress situations, those who are extremely experienced lose very little time and it does not take them off track. People who are the opposite get stuck in an OODA loop and it generally goes poorly for them.

I think the other inferred factor I see in all this is that cops are somehow better gunhandlers because they carry a gun for a living. That's like saying we're better drivers, interrogators, runners, and hide-and-go-seek players because that's what we do at work all the time. Everyone is a little different, everyone has their skill set. Every cop I've exposed to competition has come away with a new idea of what can be capable with a firearm. Some get the itch and go all in ... some don't. It's just like any other person coming out. We're not different because we deal with dirty people for a living.

[Dr. No]

I've done plenty of blind/surprise stages. For a while they were all the rage at the IDPA Indoor Nationals, so you'd get at least two or three of them, usually in low/no light. I'm not even saying they're bad or that people shouldn't do them, what I'm saying is that in the context of USPSA they don't make sense, because they're counter to the whole point of USPSA, which is getting better at shooting.

Surprise stages are completely dumb in a "competitive" arena. They have absolutely no basis for comparing skill, because it is a luck based COF. IMO, they are fun but have no place in a game where you're playing for money.

If you put a "tactical" guy in a blind COF and tell him "find the targets", he's going to work cover, pie angles, check behind him and above him, and try to clear as much as he can from outside of the structure. Speed is NOT an appropriate tactic.

[Peally]

Dr. No up in here dropping knowledge carpet bombs.

[GJM]

Any LEOs out there who shoot a solid M or GM game with just their duty rig? That would be cool to see. Like the LE version of Gabe.

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Assuming you mean field courses, I think holster hardly matters, as the small delta in draw speed is hardly a factor in the overall stage. Matters more so in classifiers, but there are still a variety of start positions in classifiers.

[45dotACP]

Assuming you mean field courses, I think holster hardly matters, as the small delta in draw speed is hardly a factor in the overall stage. Matters more so in classifiers, but there are still a variety of start positions in classifiers.

Some LEOs use closed top mag pouches...I'm kinda more interested in that TBH

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[JodyH]

Some LEOs use closed top mag pouches...I'm kinda more interested in that TBH

Most of the USBP guys have closed top mag pouches.
On classifiers it sucks for them unless they leave them open and the flap tucked behind the belt.
On field courses it doesn't make as much difference if the reloads are well pre-planned, it does make a difference on surprise flat footed reloads.
I know a B (in the 65-70% range all the time) Production shooter who only shoots from his duty gear (including closed flap mag carriers, fully locked SLS/ALS Safariland, and purple box .40 through his LEM P2000).
He'd probably be a solid A from dedicated gear.

[Mr_White]

One of the most valuable elements of USPSA or anything similar is that it is an actual, legitimate competition. Hits and time are about all that can be pretty objectively measured, creating a pretty fair competition. Decisionmaking and tactics are better attended in scenario and FOF training, where human interaction can occur and subjective judgments can be made about those elements. In timed and scored competition, the inclusion of tactics just dilutes the objectivity of the competition, and pushes tactics toward the speedier end. Which is good for when going fast is the appropriate tactic, but going fast is just one of the forms 'good timing' can take.