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Thread: USPSA as a skills development tool for LE

  1. #21
    Site Supporter JodyH's Avatar
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    I often hear the line that competition is unrealistic because one guy taking on ten badguys is just ridiculous and you're forced to use bad tactics.
    I agree completely.

    Try looking at the stages this way:

    You're not shooting ten different badguys.
    You're shooting one or two badguys from different positions.

    Those three targets arrayed shoulder to shoulder in front of you... that's not three different badguys it's one badguy who's made two steps to the side.

    Two targets in front of a wall and three behind the wall... that not five different badguys, it's one bad guy who keeps moving to different positions while you're shooting at him.
    There's no real need to "slice the pie" when you're chasing the one badguy around the corner at speed.

    It's just a small mental switch you can do in how you approach USPSA to free you from thinking the tactics you're using are "bad".
    Last edited by JodyH; 11-13-2017 at 01:26 PM.
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  2. #22
    It is not an all or nothing issue. You can have benefits to fun and competition while at the same time learning and improving in areas that may help in your job. The difference is how much benefit a person can get for their job from competition if they are extremely different. The OP suggested a premise in his statement and title of the thread that USPSA may be a development tool for LE. That is the discussion. It isn't that it is 100% or it isn't 100%. It is how much, why and can it have more benefits as a development tool for LE if a class is established for LEOs or if it is kept as is how it has less benefit. Having a LEO class where the shooters use all regular duty gear and the squad of LEOs go through the same course of fire and stages as everyone else just no walk through and stricter cover use gives more benefits to the participating LEOs than using different gear and standard practices yet the time,score and overall standings can still be compared to everyone else as well as to other LEOs using the adjusted equipment rules changes. No real tactics change or are introduced to drastically change the program or how an event is run. It changes nothing for any competitor in any other class just adds a class that can benefit LEO participants more than just running stock/production with different gear and the aid of walk through planning.

  3. #23
    Site Supporter JodyH's Avatar
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    The "no walk-thrus" is impossible to enforce if the shooters actually help tape and reset targets like they should be doing.
    "For a moment he felt good about this. A moment or two later he felt bad about feeling good about it. Then he felt good about feeling bad about feeling good about it and, satisfied, drove on into the night."
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  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by octagon View Post
    It is not an all or nothing issue. You can have benefits to fun and competition while at the same time learning and improving in areas that may help in your job. The difference is how much benefit a person can get for their job from competition if they are extremely different. The OP suggested a premise in his statement and title of the thread that USPSA may be a development tool for LE. That is the discussion. It isn't that it is 100% or it isn't 100%. It is how much, why and can it have more benefits as a development tool for LE if a class is established for LEOs or if it is kept as is how it has less benefit. Having a LEO class where the shooters use all regular duty gear and the squad of LEOs go through the same course of fire and stages as everyone else just no walk through and stricter cover use gives more benefits to the participating LEOs than using different gear and standard practices yet the time,score and overall standings can still be compared to everyone else as well as to other LEOs using the adjusted equipment rules changes. No real tactics change or are introduced to drastically change the program or how an event is run. It changes nothing for any competitor in any other class just adds a class that can benefit LEO participants more than just running stock/production with different gear and the aid of walk through planning.
    Why is it that whenever people talk about competition shooting for cops and military types, someone always brings up tactics. Why try to make competition something it isn't? There are plenty of places to learn tactics, to practice tactics, etc, but none of those places are a USPSA match. If cops want to shoot competition as a tool to get better at automatic gunhandling, then that's awesome, but why even pretend to introduce "tactics" into it. Why isn't "getting super good at shooting and managing the gun" a worthy enough training goal?

  5. #25
    What tactics are being suggested? Using cover better? Not doing a walk through to plan the stage? What tactic(s) is being suggested by me?

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by octagon View Post
    What tactics are being suggested? Using cover better? Not doing a walk through to plan the stage? What tactic(s) is being suggested by me?
    Using cover "better" or even at all during a USPSA match and intentionally avoiding the walk through would be really dumb things to do at a match, especially if we treat "getting better at shooting" as the end goal of competitive particpation. Plus the walk through can actually help develop visulization skills and pre-stress planning skills, both of which are usefull skils to have in a mil/le environment. Skipping out on funamental parts of the game just to get better at "tactics" is dumb and a waste of time, when cops/troops are far better off practicing those tactics somewhere designed for it.

  7. #27
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    The "unrealistic/reflects poor tactics" argument is missing the point of cops competing in USPSA. The benefit is purely in the area of technical shooting skills/weapon manipulation. To me, this also includes thinking through problems and using target discrimination. It is not useful from a "learning tactics" standpoint, but in my opinion neither is IDPA. Those of us "using tactics" in the real world at work should be practicing.and using those skills in other venues as well.

    A while back when I started going to USPSA matches with my training buddy who's also on our range staff, another of the range officers mentioned that it wasn't a good idea, because "unrealistic". I looked at him and said, "You mean as opposed to our static qualification?" He didn't have a reply. Another of the range guys has finally decided to join us, and is having a blast. Full time instructor for the last few years....but this 50 year old crusty street Sergeant can run rings around him on a USPSA stage.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by AMC View Post
    The "unrealistic/reflects poor tactics" argument is missing the point of cops competing in USPSA. The benefit is purely in the area of technical shooting skills/weapon manipulation. To me, this also includes thinking through problems and using target discrimination. It is not useful from a "learning tactics" standpoint, but in my opinion neither is IDPA. Those of us "using tactics" in the real world at work should be practicing.and using those skills in other venues as well.
    Exactly. Let's say, hypothetically, that I was a member of the USAF Reserve and I knew I had a deployment to somewhere hot and sandy coming up, and during the course of this hypothetical deployment I'd be carrying a rifle and expected to actually use it. I could then realize that my rifle/carbine skills in areas like multiple targets, manipultions, and movement, were all a weak spot in my shootin skillset. So I could build a PCC rifle that's essentially a 9mm clone of my issue rifle, and use that to get better at the fundamental marksmanship parts of running the rifle, and then worry about tactics and door kicking when I get to pre-deployment work ups.

    Hypothetically.
    Last edited by jetfire; 11-13-2017 at 02:47 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by caleb View Post
    Using cover "better" or even at all during a USPSA match and intentionally avoiding the walk through would be really dumb things to do at a match, especially if we treat "getting better at shooting" as the end goal of competitive particpation. Plus the walk through can actually help develop visulization skills and pre-stress planning skills, both of which are usefull skils to have in a mil/le environment. Skipping out on funamental parts of the game just to get better at "tactics" is dumb and a waste of time, when cops/troops are far better off practicing those tactics somewhere designed for it.
    If using cover better or at all is dumb than the benefit to LEOs is limited in that aspect and a negative to LEOs competing. The walk through allows for planning and visualization but eliminates surprise and thinking on your feet in the moment something every LEO has to do often. Thus another negative aspects for LEOs in the tool of development. If LEOs are doing it for development purposes it is inefficient and could be better done with time and accuracy drills in front of their peers for less money and time spent. They could use their duty gear and "compete" against others using the same equipment and standards. This doesn't add to the ranks of participants of USPSA or any other organization and doesn't offer opportunities to also try other classes(production,open,Limited etc..) That seem pretty short sighted and limiting to all sides.

    How does it hurt or even affect other USPSA competitors to have a LEO class with the rules of duty gear, no walk throughs and better cover use? It takes a little more time. This could add to the ranks of shooters and improve LEO skills even more while agencies could have better skilled officers and more community interactions. Is the status quo in USPSA that they have more than enough participants and money that there is no need for possibly adding more?

  10. #30
    USPSA is technical shooting practice, not tactics. When I see people try to do USPSA with good tactics, it is neither feast nor fowl, as the tactics used are just not convincing. I sometimes wonder if the “tactics” are mostly ego related, so as to avoid directly comparing performance, and prevent embarrassment. USPSA is just brutal on your ego, as other shooters who are a lot less knowledgeable, slay you regularly. I actually find that refreshing and motivating. With the advent of PCC, I have also come to understand that a carbine is a big game changer in making accurate hits fast, and an adversary with a long gun, when you have a pistol, gets like a class or two bump beyond their pistol skill level.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

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