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Thread: USPSA as a skills development tool for LE

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    USPSA as a skills development tool for LE

    During the winter months, one of the local monthly matches I shoot is near the border, and attracts quite a few LE and military types new to competition. I have seen enough to form some impressions. By and large, these are muscular, athletic young men, with an interest in shooting. Some are shooting duty firearms like the P2000 LEM .40, and others shooting things they feel more shootable. Today for example, within this contingent I saw a P2000 LEM, Glock 19, Glock 19 direct milled for a DP Pro, CZ P10-C and a CZ P09. Lots of expensive support gear by Ares, and similar companies.

    In terms of match placement, excluding one dedicated LE shooter, the new LE guys are shooting 20-40 percent of the match winner. So what is going on. Their stances look good, and they are definitely some of the physically strongest guys at the match. They do lots of aiming, and actually spend too much time aiming. Their main problem, though, is trigger control. OK on close open targets, but heads, partial and especially targets with no-shoots are a big problem. If I was a hostage, I would not want to be standing below the bad guy the LEM shooter is targeting, or standing to the left of a bad guy, when the good guy is right handed and has a Glock. Even with targets nailed to stationary wood slats, no shoots are getting shot two or three times, when in proximity to a shoot target.

    Also, once these guys start shooting they seem to loose track of everything besides the target in front of them. As a result, they approach new target arrays with one or two cartridges in their pistol, and nearly 100 percent shoot to slide lock. Some have problems with the slide stop, and time after time, shoot dry without realizing it before getting a click. They almost all holster way too fast, without a sense of where their body is, and what a potentially dangerous maneuver is holstering a loaded gun.

    USPSA, like other shooting sports with a timer and score is clearly a game. However, these guys are seeing targets at the match that in many instances are harder than any targets they have shot, in more complicated arrangements, and with a clock running. They are also being exposed to very high level shooters, even if most are old and fat, like the typical USPSA enthusiast. If I was in charge of developing these guys, I would strongly encourage that they shoot some USPSA to learn how to press a trigger and handle their gear, and then overlay that with real tactics consistent with their organization.
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  2. #2
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    USPSA as a skills development tool for LE

    Four of the top USPSA shooters here are LEOs. 3 GMs and an M. They sometimes bring fellow officers to matches, and while these guys are new to USPSA, they usually place at least in the middle of C class, and in some cases better.

    I have heard some stories that are consistent with what you saw though. One of the GMs said something like “I wish all my guys could shoot at the C class level, but not many can.”
    Last edited by Clusterfrack; 11-12-2017 at 10:36 PM.
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  3. #3
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    Although I shoot regularly at work I haven't shot competitively in many years. The reason is primarily time management. With the job and a family I think a lot how to best spend my very limited free time. Attending a match in the central Texas area is an all day event especially when you consider travel time. I can hit the range at work, get some good trigger time in, and be done in several hours...with almost all that time being behind the gun running drills. If I spend the time to go to a match I'm getting about 10 minutes of actual shooting if that.

    Do you think spending an entire day with only minutes being actual shooting is worth it from a time management standpoint?

    I've heard some say that they occasionally attend matches as a skill assessment and to stress test their techniques which sounds like a better plan.

    As a side note, do most LEO guys you see run their duty gear?
    Last edited by secondstoryguy; 11-12-2017 at 10:54 PM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by secondstoryguy View Post
    Do most LEO guys you see run their duty gear?
    Depends. The high level (A, M, GM) USPSA LE guys typically shoot USPSA specific gear. Others a mix, with battle belt type rigs common, but a few with their duty rigs.
    Likes pretty much everything in every caliber.

  5. #5
    Disclaimer: I am one of those C class guys, so I'm only marginally qualified to talk.

    Before getting into competitive shooting, I shot near-max scores on the department qualifier, but it was an unrealistic test of technical shooting abilities. For the purposes of the qual course, any hit on a FBI Q was counted, without regard to placement. The entire course of fire was shot static on a square range, times were very generous, and no bonus points were awarded for fastest time. Finally, the course required only a few rounds from the 25y line. When I started shooting competitively, I immediately went to the gray zone. It wasn't until I started shooting a local 2-gun league that I realized what I didn't know and where to spend my training time/effort.

    Based on what I see when instructing at the state wide academy, I believe most LE shooters probably have similar issues. Unfortunately, academy level training is largely about passing the qual and those shooters who pass get little to no extra instruction to improve beyond minimum passing. In this day and age, administrators have determined shooting proficiency is lower priority than a multitude of other, more publicized topics.
    Anything I post is my opinion alone as a private citizen.

  6. #6
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    Okay. Complicated problem with a complicated answer. Folks need to remember, first, that cops aren't professional "shooters"...they're professional gun toters. Shooting skills are only one skillset among many that an officer needs to be successful, and an infrequently used one. That said, it's one of the most critical and important skillset, from both a legal and moral standpoint.

    As others pointed out, in most agencies firearms training is abysmal or non existent. In my own agency, there is no (as in zero) sustainment training post basic academy. We "qualify" twice a year (70% passing, POST minimum). Beyond that, it's up to the individual. And most don't realize what they don't know, so they don't seek out training.

    As for USPSA, yes I think it can be useful, especially in the absence of anything else. I compete in USPSA Production, mostly as a way to get extra trigger time on my service pistol, and as a way to improve my shooting skills. It's a great way to do that....you'll be challenged unlike anything you'll encounter in most LE training. I also do it because it's fun, and I really enjoy the people I've met in competition. It'd be great if my department had a program along the lines of Pat McNamara's TAPS program, applying competition based training principles to tactical shooting....but they don't. So...I compete. Do I think others should? Absolutely. I took it as a clue when both Frank Proctor and Mike Pannone told me, " Hey...you wanna improve? Shoot USPSA." Clue noted.

  7. #7
    Member JHC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post
    In terms of match placement, excluding one dedicated LE shooter, the new LE guys are shooting 20-40 percent of the match winner. So what is going on. Their stances look good, and they are definitely some of the physically strongest guys at the match. They do lots of aiming, and actually spend too much time aiming. Their main problem, though, is trigger control. OK on close open targets, but heads, partial and especially targets with no-shoots are a big problem. If I was a hostage, I would not want to be standing below the bad guy the LEM shooter is targeting, or standing to the left of a bad guy, when the good guy is right handed and has a Glock. Even with targets nailed to stationary wood slats, no shoots are getting shot two or three times, when in proximity to a shoot target.

    Also, once these guys start shooting they seem to loose track of everything besides the target in front of them. As a result, they approach new target arrays with one or two cartridges in their pistol, and nearly 100 percent shoot to slide lock. Some have problems with the slide stop, and time after time, shoot dry without realizing it before getting a click. They almost all holster way too fast, without a sense of where their body is, and what a potentially dangerous maneuver is holstering a loaded gun.

    USPSA, like other shooting sports with a timer and score is clearly a game. However, these guys are seeing targets at the match that in many instances are harder than any targets they have shot, in more complicated arrangements, and with a clock running. They are also being exposed to very high level shooters, even if most are old and fat, like the typical USPSA enthusiast. If I was in charge of developing these guys, I would strongly encourage that they shoot some USPSA to learn how to press a trigger and handle their gear, and then overlay that with real tactics consistent with their organization.
    This makes perfect sense I think. They must get the hits so whatever it takes to get the hits they have to try. Whether they have the skill and trigger control etc or not.

    And fights unfold one fight at a time that may be the only fight or just the beginning without any concept of an array of bad guys to engage from different positions and planned reloads.

    Then there is Dr. No's arguments that USPSA matches are 80% moving. And good moving for a match means pre-planning.

    There have been arguments here re whether moving is part of shooting but I sensed those back and forths were talking past each other.

    I think competition shooting for the professional gunman is great but IMO his/her ideal (if honing fighting attributes is the primary objective vs competing) would be to let each stage surprise them. Don't walk it, don't plan it. Improvise through each stage.
    Last edited by JHC; 11-13-2017 at 06:33 AM.
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  8. #8
    Member Peally's Avatar
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    It's great for testing your fundamentals. Most people that shoot long enough understand its strengths and weaknesses as far as building fighting skills.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by GJM View Post

    In terms of match placement, excluding one dedicated LE shooter, the new LE guys are shooting 20-40 percent of the match winner. So what is going on. Their stances look good, and they are definitely some of the physically strongest guys at the match. They do lots of aiming, and actually spend too much time aiming. Their main problem, though, is trigger control. OK on close open targets, but heads, partial and especially targets with no-shoots are a big problem. If I was a hostage, I would not want to be standing below the bad guy the LEM shooter is targeting, or standing to the left of a bad guy, when the good guy is right handed and has a Glock. Even with targets nailed to stationary wood slats, no shoots are getting shot two or three times, when in proximity to a shoot target.
    I have also seen this with LE but also many first time to newer shooters. I think some of the resulting hits on no-shoots or "hard cover" are a mental or visual failure more than a skills failure. They think too much and concentrate on the thing they don't want to shoot or worry about missing, instead of focusing on what they need to shoot.
    Last edited by Artemas2; 11-13-2017 at 09:18 AM.

  10. #10
    Member Zincwarrior's Avatar
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    n playing IDPA in Houston, we often had police attend, in their full gear. I was always amazed how they could carry that. In Austin, the county sheriff's marksmanship team will run in USPSA and in IDPA carbine matches we have here. Good shooters, fully embracing the gaming aspects of it (I think one is a Master level). They will even bring their kids out for the IDPA matches.

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