USPSA as a skills development tool for LE

[Gio]

Have you looked at a Transtar target lately? Being able to hit the 3-5 ring on a Transtar, which will get you qualified, requires almost no trigger control as we understand it. The instructor minimum for a lot of those folks you mention is a 255/300 on the CITP course which is shot a bullseye pace.

Training to a qualification course is one of my biggest pet peeves with LE training. On the Georgia state law enforcement course, I had a retired guy with Parkinson's and a 5 shot J-frame pass the course. Meanwhile 99% of all GA LEO recruits train only to the qual course and then shoot it once or twice a year to stay current with no additional training.

[gtae07]

Most folks are going to be limited by the quality of their initial training. If your initial training is poor, you will struggle forever. It isn't that you can't overcome poor initial training but that most people won't do the work necessary to do so. The results you are seeing are a combination of training by mediocre non-SME's and low standards.

That's probably just as true in the civilian/average Joe world. Only a tiny, tiny fraction of people ever get their initial training from top-level instructors; the vast majority of people learn what they know from a family member, friend, or whoever is teaching the "basics" class at their local range.

It would be nice if every new shooter could have a chance to learn from the true top-level recognized experts, just like it would be wonderful if every new pilot had Bob Hoover as their first instructor, or had Richard Feynman as their high school physics teacher (yes, I know they're both dead... not the point!). Unfortunately, the supply of such folks and their availability to teach basic classes in addition to their advanced ones is dwarfed by the number of people out there who need instruction.

I'm not really sure what to do about that.

[rob_s]

In my respectful opinion, I don't agree:

I think that removing all the tactical/etc aspects and focusing solely on gun-handling and shot placement levels the playing field considerably and removes ambiguity. I.e. you either shoot and hit the targets reliably or you don't (and get penalized). In the past 10 years running a larger club, we've seen a lot of officers compete. Most get into at at a casual level. They recognize the game for what it is and try to learn to run the pistol subconsciously. I've rarely heard it to actually be detrimental to actually street performance for the average beat cop, but I'll admit that my data set is fairly small.

I guess what I'm trying to say, in summary, is that USPSA and IDPA are what they are: They're venues to experiment with gun handling and get good trigger time with "skin in the game". Trying to bend it to some "no walk through", "use cover", subjective thing is where it becomes useless: what are the benchmarks? What constitutes an acceptable run? (This is famously the beef with IDPA rules: cover calls, etc...)

I agree. They are GAMES, not tactical training. It’s about the shooting, not the "real world".

I used to be one of those people that subscribed to the fallacy that I needed to shoot the games “tactically”. What I finally realized was that this was just an excuse for sucking.

[LSP552]

Training to a qualification course is one of my biggest pet peeves with LE training. On the Georgia state law enforcement course, I had a retired guy with Parkinson's and a 5 shot J-frame pass the course. Meanwhile 99% of all GA LEO recruits train only to the qual course and then shoot it once or twice a year to stay current with no additional training.

A fellow LSP instructor shot the LA POST qual course with a wrist rocket and passed, just to show cadets how really worthless it was. And that was before they made the latest dumb down changes. That target hung in the range classroom for a long time.

Most agencies I’m aware of train to shoot the state standard. Training to pass a qual course isn’t training.

[jetfire]

Most agencies I’m aware of train to shoot the state standard. Training to pass a qual course isn’t training.

Preach. I have the same gripe about the USAF M9 course - to actually make expert requires high-D/low-C class levels of shooting, since there are 15 yard headshots on the COF. However, to qualify all you have to do is hit the paper 35/45 shots, and the targets we use are HUGE. Since our leadership uses the number of qualified shooters as a metric for evaluating our effectiveness as instructors, if we get someone who really sucks at shooting, we tell them to forget about the head shots and just shoot all their rounds at the body to ensure they qual. It's frustating.

[babypanther]

My first match that I ever shot was an IDPA one with a friend I used to work with. At the time I was working for the Border Patrol, and I rolled with my duty gear. Flap retention mag pouches, mags loaded with my issued carry ammo (180 gr HST's) and the P2000 I was convinced couldn't keep up with the "gamer guns." I had a great time, shot decent, got the bug, etc etc. There was another agent shooting the match, he was a member of the sector and possibly the national shooting team, also running his duty gear. He legitimately ran his P2000 at warp speed. I was shocked, as in, oh my god the world is not, after all, flat.

Anyway, after that match I went out and bought open top mag pouches and eventually wound up here on this forum to try and unlock the secret to running the LEM like I had seen it done. I am local LE these days, and time is actually the limiting factor, not necessarily money. My work schedule conflicts with matches. I would still attend a match, but have to leave before it finished, so I'd take a hit on scores. I'm trying to get to a point in my career where I can start getting the time off.

When I shoot the match, I just have fun and shoot it. I have seen the benefits that others have noted here in this thread.

[JSGlock34]

I don't consider IDPA/KSTG/USPSA training, but competition has always been a great opportunity for me to use skills that I can seldom apply in live fire. The great majority of my shooting is limited to practice at an indoor range - I don't have much opportunity to transition between multiple targets, shoot from barricades, move between positions, shoot on the move, shoot from awkward positions, etc. My monthly matches are my chance to get out of the booth and move. There is value there.

[AMC]

Like George asked....it is a TOOL. Especially absent a really solid professional training program that actually focuses on weapon manipulation skills development, marksmanship fundamentals, target discrimination, etc., (Which let's be honest, exists in only a handful of agencies in this huge country) it is a very valuable tool. One among many that professional gun toters would be wise to take advantage of.

[mc1911]

Disclaimer: I am one of those C class guys, so I'm only marginally qualified to talk.

Before getting into competitive shooting, I shot near-max scores on the department qualifier, but it was an unrealistic test of technical shooting abilities. For the purposes of the qual course, any hit on a FBI Q was counted, without regard to placement. The entire course of fire was shot static on a square range, times were very generous, and no bonus points were awarded for fastest time. Finally, the course required only a few rounds from the 25y line. When I started shooting competitively, I immediately went to the gray zone. It wasn't until I started shooting a local 2-gun league that I realized what I didn't know and where to spend my training time/effort. [/SIZE]

Being willing and able to recognize what you don't know and dedicate effort to fixing that is, unfortunately, not a common reaction for many shooters. But it is the one reaction that is necessary for improvement.

[BN]

I think shooting anything out of your comfort zone will help you learn.

I have shot mostly IDPA in local matches for the last few years. Before IDPA started all my local clubs shot USPSA. Then in 1997 they all switched to IDPA with a different set of rules and I had to learn new stuff. Recently, USPSA has become available in my area again. Now, when I shoot USPSA, I am out of my comfort zone again. Some of my local clubs have dropped IDPA and they are using their own set of rules. (sometimes made up on the spot, I think) LOL Again, I am shooting out of my comfort zone. I've shot cowboy, 2-gun, 3-gun, PPC, longrange rimfire, etc. Put yourself under pressure by shooting under somebody else's rules. Get to where you don't need to think about the gun handling and you can concentrate on the problem solving.

If you get comfortable with your local club, then I suggest you find the most unfriendly club around and go shoot there. After all, a gunfight will be outside your comfort zone with unfriendlys. How will you do?