Engaging a Shooter in a Crowded Space

[NH Shooter]

This is based on my limited expertise and what I think would be reasonable tactics.

Scenario - I am in a crowded, indoor space (movie theater, night club, church, etc.) armed with my PPS and an assailant armed with a rifle has entered to inflict harm. Of course my first choice would be to exit the enclosed space ASAP, but for the sake of this discussion let's assume that is not a viable option.

The scene unfolds, the shooting begins...

Panic and chaos ensues, people are running in all directions for their lives.

Assumption 1 - as the panic unfolds, the shooter cannot keep all of the victims in view as they disperse in various directions. Perhaps the shooter experiences tunnel vision from the adrenaline rush...

Assumption 2 - no longer able to focus on individual victims as they disperse, the shooter fires into the crowd that is within a certain visual arc in front of them.

Tactic - blend in with the chaos while attempting to flank the assailant unnoticed. Engage assailant when no longer in their visual arc of attention and when a clear shot is presented.

I know this is an over-simplified description of an extremely chaotic, unpredictable scene (and much easier said than done), but if I'm forced to engage I would like to try to gain every advantage possible - and have some preconceived plan on how to do so. In a nutshell I would attempt to (1) blend in with the chaos while (2) maneuvering into a flanking position and (3) engage at the best opportunity presented. A few seconds to fire a few well-aimed shots...

If I'm able to avoid panic myself, this is my current thinking in how I would go about it. TIA for any input/discussion.

[JohnO]

Assumption #3: They are a stone cold sociopath bent on killing. They are highly perceptive, scanning for threats, taking in everything and carefully choosing their targets.

[NH Shooter]

Assumption #3: They are a stone cold sociopath bent on killing. They are highly perceptive, scanning for threats, taking in everything and carefully choosing their targets.

That is a reasonable (and likely) assumption. In terms of tactics, I think I'm still looking to blend in (not be perceived as a threat) and attempt a flanking maneuver to optimize my chances.

Of course in reality, I could end up just peeing my pants and hiding in a closet.

[LSP552]

Every event is unique and will present challenges and opportunities. The shooter(s), weapons (theirs and yours), abilities and environment will all impact what our response should be.

In general, I prefer to think in broad terms and fit basic principles into the specific scenario. Our cover and concealment, maneuver, range of engagement, and a host of other factors, will be situational dependent. I like to think assess, consider options and then react accordingly to the threat, environment and your own moral compass.

[BJXDS]

Seriously I understand what your getting at. Training and preparation is better than not. We all have preconceived ideas of how, when and where SHTF and we will react. In reality it probably aint going down like that and will be 10 times more chaotic than you have envisioned.

I think we all need to keep in mind we can what if any scenario into success or failure and sometimes you need to do shit you probably shouldn't.

Stephen Willeford and Johnnie Langendorff are prime examples, two heroes in my mind.

[NH Shooter]

I like to think assess, consider options and then react accordingly to the threat, environment and your own moral compass.

Yes, absolutely. And there's no possible way to know exactly how such an event would unfold, so this conversation is entirely conjectural.

At the same time I'm thinking having some options come immediately to mind in such an extremely stressful situation would be useful. For example, I would really want to avoid squaring-up in an isosceles stance in plain view of a rifle-armed assailant and exchange fire. Maybe I'd have no choice, but if given the chance I'd like to take at least one or two shots without the assailant knowing they're coming. I'd want to fight as "dirty" and "unfairly" as possible. If I could scramble away out of immediate view and then position myself for a high percentage shot, that would be optimal use of the tactic I'm envisioning.

The scariest and most unsettling part of this kind of conversation for me is the realization that I would have to react with the same (or greater) level of viciousness as the assailant. I would want to become the predator for as long as it takes to end it (either me or the assailant). Fight or flight, but if I have to fight it's going to be no-holds-barred violence applied as "unfairly" as possible.

The hard skills are fleshed out on the range. Short of actual first-hand experience, I think the software needs to get fleshed out in conversations like these, followed up with plenty of honest introspection. My sincere thanks to all for your insight.

[beenalongtime]

How about another one.


As your trying to "blend into the crowd", that crowd spots your gun and decides your another shooter? (not everyone knows you, or your motives)

[NH Shooter]

How about another one.


As your trying to "blend into the crowd", that crowd spots your gun and decides your another shooter? (not everyone knows you, or your motives)

As part of the blending-in, the gun stays concealed until the last possible moment. I'd also want (need) both hands free for the scrambling part...

[LSP552]

Playing the “what if” game is helpful, up to a point. Have a pre-programmed immediate action plan is always good. The key, IMO, is to not take the autopilot too far into the engagement. The very first thing I’m going to do is to try and identify what’s happening and then my decision tree splits. Am I alone or with family? Am I close to an escapee point or not.....

[JohnO]

Playing the “what if” game is helpful, up to a point. Have a pre-programmed immediate action plan is always good. The key, IMO, is to not take the autopilot too far into the engagement. The very first thing I’m going to do is to try and identify what’s happening and then my decision tree splits. Am I alone or with family? Am I close to an escapee point or not.....

Exactly!

Concerns given the described circumstance include. A clear field of fire of one engages shooter. The possibility of fleeing people moving into your line of fire. What or who is behind the shooter relative to your position also a dynamic which could be in flux.

Then as mentioned by LSP552, if you are alone have a means of safe egress. Have you predetermined what you are willing to get involved in? Circumstances can vary from if you don't fight you die to am I willing to deal with the aftermath if I attempt to stop this when you could just vamoose.

Is the shooter alone???