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Thread: How Does the Handgun Ammo Used by the FBI Compare to Modern Duty Ammo?

  1. #11
    Site Supporter Totem Polar's Avatar
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    @blues, oh absolutely. i’ve seen that quote reposted in numerous places—I’m just saying that, of the old loads, that chunky .357 silvertip seemed to hold together well, penetrate, and expand, most of the time. It wasn’t technology, rather, a happy marriage of horspower vs mass. The 145 ST strikes me a bit as the Lamborghini Miura of duty loads; enough ahead of its time to still be a thrilling (if not loud) performer, even if completely superseded by the advancing of technology.
    @HCM meet the new gunfight lesson, same as the old gunfight lesson, yes?

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidheshooter View Post
    @blues, oh absolutely. i’ve seen that quote reposted in numerous places—I’m just saying that, of the old loads, that chunky .357 silvertip seemed to hold together well, penetrate, and expand, most of the time. It wasn’t technology, rather, a happy marriage of horspower vs mass. The 145 ST strikes me a bit as the Lamborghini Miura of duty loads; enough ahead of its time to still be a thrilling (if not loud) performer, even if completely superseded by the advancing of technology.
    @HCM meet the new gunfight lesson, same as the old gunfight lesson, yes?
    It is a lesson the FBI has learned. Today a majority of Agents have take home long guns ensuring they are available when neede.

  3. #13
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    Thanks for all that. Was not trying post and run but went on an overnight canoe trip yesterday and am just getting back To clarify, none of my guys are saying "9mm is no good because Miami." I hope that if testing shows that HST penetrates 12" on Gel Test X, and the old load only penetrates 8", and oh, by the way, your beloved .40 penetrates 13" - perhaps the light bulb might start to flicker. I will check the net for testing on the old school loads mentioned. Thanks.

  4. #14
    Site Supporter psalms144.1's Avatar
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    Tensaw - I also deal with folks who believe the .40 is Mjolnir while the 9mm is slightly less powerful than .22 short. Most of them are former military whose only real world experience (first hand or second-9th hand) is the performance of 9mm FMJ. I also have a couple former NYPD who were also seeing less than stellar performance from 9mm FMJ.

    Despite numerous and several attempts to show them proof (such as DocGKR's testing) that there's not an ant's fart worth of difference, none of them are swayed. Don't get me started on the "if you hit a guy with a .45 in the foot, it'll tear his whole leg off" people. Generally, I have lots of time talking to these .40 fans, as most of them either barely pass our qualification, or fail repeatedly until I coach them to success. If I had a nickle for every problem shooter not making grade while insisting on shooting a G27, .40 S&W Shield, or the like, I could say f*** this s**+ and retire today...

    I guess my point is I wish you all the luck in the world trying to convince any one that their pet caliber (or pistol, or holster, or NS, or whatever) isn't "all that."

  5. #15
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    Every now and then you'll still find someone with limited knowledge who wants to parrot cute little phrases to win an argument. We issue 9mm's and the county Sheriff's issue the same gun in 40. We also have about 1,100 officers compared to their 250 road deputies, and we average a LOT more OIS incidents per year. We police a city and they deal with the suburbs. They can actually go a year or two without a single OIS incident.

    Last year our S&W LE sales rep was doing a demo for the then new 2.0. at our facility. While there, one of the Deputies butted into a ballistics conversation I was having with the S&W rep. The Deputy's only comment was something along the lines of, "Real men use a Forty...". I stopped my conversation and asked the Deputy if he was aware that his "Forty" actually fires a 10mm bullet? Does he really thing that the extra 1mm diameter bullet will turn his handgun into a death ray?

    I am more than happy to have a grownup conversation about ballistics with someone willing to have an actual discussion on the topic. But lately Ive found that I'm too old to tolerate stupid anymore.

    Go to any level 1 trauma center that services an inter-city community and talk with the Chief of Staff for the Emergency Department. If I were to take three GSW victims, all with a similar build and all shot in the same location of the torso, one shot with a 9mm, the second with a 40 and the third with a 45. And assume that all three rounds using the same design of bullet, could the Doctor tell the caliber by looking at the wound or the damage? Hint, the answer will be, Nope.

    The FBI Miami shootout was a pivotal moment for Law Enforcement in regards to duty ammunition. But it was also a pivotal moment for Law Enforcement in regards to tactics as it relates to weapon selection (right tool for the job, AKA bring a long gun to a long gun fight) and tactics as it relates to conducting a Felony Traffic Stop.

    Have a reliable handgun in a duty caliber. Utilize good shot placement and appropriate tactics, before your opponent can do the same to you. I am convinced that this is the recipe for success in a violent encounter if limited to a handgun.
    Last edited by Beat Trash; 11-19-2017 at 10:18 AM.

  6. #16
    Site Supporter DocGKR's Avatar
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    Well said!
    Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie

  7. #17
    Member John Hearne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    The real lesson from Miami was not matter how much of an admin pain in the ass it is, bring your long guns.
    While long guns matter, missing with a long gun is really no more effective than missing with a handgun.

    For me, the major lesson of Miami is to never take a bureaucrat's word that you are "qualified" and good enough. Every agent there had met the mandated standards of the agency and many were "good shots" by agency standards. Those shooting standards in no way, shape, or form reflected the difficult marksmanship problems they faced that day. Partial targets, environmentally obscured targets, moving targets, targets at long range, target in close proximity to friendlies, and targets that were shooting back were all faced that day. Being able to hit anywhere on the bowling pin of a "Q" target did not prepare anyone for the work that needed to be done.. The standards required that day bear a very strong resemblance to what Bolke and Dobbs demand of their students.

    The agents displayed remarkable courage that day. To charge across the street, while hearing a 5.56 rifle discharging, when you are armed with just a J-frame is not the act of a coward. The problem is that once you decide to close with the enemy, you have to be able to deliver meaningful hits in a reasonable time frame.

    Contemporary ammunition tends to penetrate deeper than what was issued back in 1986. IIRC, that generation of Silvertip only penetrated ~8" of ballistic gelatin. The fact is that the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. In fact, the deep hit that transected the arm and drove into the lung performed way better than one could reasonably expect. This penetration is an asset, but only if the deep path of the bullet coincides with the vital structures of the body.
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Hearne View Post
    While long guns matter, missing with a long gun is really no more effective than missing with a handgun.

    For me, the major lesson of Miami is to never take a bureaucrat's word that you are "qualified" and good enough. Every agent there had met the mandated standards of the agency and many were "good shots" by agency standards. Those shooting standards in no way, shape, or form reflected the difficult marksmanship problems they faced that day. Partial targets, environmentally obscured targets, moving targets, targets at long range, target in close proximity to friendlies, and targets that were shooting back were all faced that day. Being able to hit anywhere on the bowling pin of a "Q" target did not prepare anyone for the work that needed to be done.. The standards required that day bear a very strong resemblance to what Bolke and Dobbs demand of their students.

    The agents displayed remarkable courage that day. To charge across the street, while hearing a 5.56 rifle discharging, when you are armed with just a J-frame is not the act of a coward. The problem is that once you decide to close with the enemy, you have to be able to deliver meaningful hits in a reasonable time frame.

    Contemporary ammunition tends to penetrate deeper than what was issued back in 1986. IIRC, that generation of Silvertip only penetrated ~8" of ballistic gelatin. The fact is that the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. In fact, the deep hit that transected the arm and drove into the lung performed way better than one could reasonably expect. This penetration is an asset, but only if the deep path of the bullet coincides with the vital structures of the body.
    While long guns obviously hit harder than handguns, I believe the greatest advantage of long guns is they are much easier to hit with.

  9. #19
    Member John Hearne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    While long guns obviously hit harder than handguns, I believe the greatest advantage of long guns is they are much easier to hit with.
    In theory, yes. In practice, not so much. If you think police handgun training is bad, you should see the long gun stuff.

    The most common mistake I see with my folks is failing to deploy a long gun when it is utterly appropriate and the smart thing to do. They all "feel" more comfortable with their handgun since that's where they get the majority of their (limited) training time.
    • It's not the odds, it's the stakes.
    • If you aren't dry practicing every week, you're not serious.....
    • "Tache-Psyche Effect - a polite way of saying 'You suck.' " - GG

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Hearne View Post
    In theory, yes. In practice, not so much. If you think police handgun training is bad, you should see the long gun stuff.

    The most common mistake I see with my folks is failing to deploy a long gun when it is utterly appropriate and the smart thing to do. They all "feel" more comfortable with their handgun since that's where they get the majority of their (limited) training time.
    I see it all the time - kinda did that for a living full time for several years.....

    While your average officers M4 skills are nothing to write home about, their odds of making a 15 yard headshot or hitting an 8" circle at 25 yards are still much greater with an M4 than with a handgun.

    We run our guys through some drills like the half and half with both the rifle and the pistol to let them see this fir themselves. While the results are not great, they are noticeably better with the rifle than the handgun.

    For those who are not gun people and are only really familiar with their service pistol, the M4 is a much easier jump than the shotgun, particularly pump shotguns.
    Last edited by HCM; 11-21-2017 at 01:47 PM.

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